where did i say aluminum was for resonance? wtf? don't put words in my mouth. you are filling your posts with junk hoping to houdini some kind of conclusion. point:
"The whole point of my posts is to show: edead, fatmat, dynamt original, grace and water guard are all the exact same stuff. The only purpose they serve is if you have alot of bass and want to stop the sheet metal from vibrating. It also will stop plastic pieces if you use this to tie them down with."
but before...
"The point was to compare two identical products, used for sound absorption, one with the aluminum backing, one without. Subtract the two from each other and you get the equivalent of the aluminum reflections similar to what we are looking at"
MAKE UP YOUR MIND! i can't believe anything i read when i can't figure out what you are saying. and while i take information from a seller with sceptism, i'm leaving this thread with a quote from the fatmat website that will answer anything you could come up with:
"Aluminum Layer-This is a 3 mil aluminum constraining layer fused to the top of the rubberized compound. Using this layer allows our product to become thinner, lighter yet 4X's more effective than other deadeners on the market. When you see messages or hear people say that all deadeners are the same, it's safe to say that you should be looking elsewhere for future advice."
Start with the fact that "the whole point" phrase was referring to everyone who might be listening at home with questions as to the suitability of different sound dampening sheets...
The Second is to deal with your little aluminum backing tirade.
Honestly, I don't care what you use, the materials are pretty much the same, and I'm not sure what you're arguing about. If you go look at the data I provided, they'll show that the aluminum foil does provide some reflection. That was your point no?
I was simply saying you don't want those reflections.
If you don't understand it, why don't you start from the beginning of the thread and read my other posts, it might make a little more sense instead of chopping this stuff out of perspective.
Honestly, I've gotten in many fights with people about this. And you want to know what they all have in common? They already dropped alot of $$ on their "special" material and now have to justify to themselves why they did the right thing. Well, I'll tell you what, I've made the wrong decision many times, but my ego doesn't get in the way and try and disprove the truth... I feel stupid yes, but next time, I would take what I know and do things the right way.
So go get some empirical evidence about the aluminum layer if you don't understand mine. The fatmat quote is stupid, "thinner, lighter, yet 4x more effective"... you know what? what is the goal of the asphault sheeting??? WEIGHT. There is no other purpose to the layer than weight. Honestly, go check out some acoustics books or somthing.
I worked for a company for 4 years doing very high end home theatres. Two of the guys used to work in a car audio shop, one of them used to manage it. The manager had put quite a few cars through IASCA SQ competitions. I've posted pics of what I've done and offered to show anyone who wants to see it... You haven't brought anything meaningful to the conversation than your personal opinions which are obviously biased against logical reasoning and evidence.
I'm personally going to ask a mod to step in and end your posts, you're making an A$$ out of yourself.
You haven't brought anything meaningful to the conversation than your personal opinions which are obviously biased against logical reasoning and evidence.
I'm personally going to ask a mod to step in and end your posts, you're making an A$$ out of yourself.
you're right, i hate logic, kill kittens, and am a member of a saddam hussein fan club. i'm not flaming here, don't threaten me.
i can have my opinion!!! why should i have to agree with you? do you have any "empirical data" from a 7th gen? no. have i heard your car, my car, both with the same equipment and install, with my own ears? no. this is a FORUM. you have had your say, i have had mine. i did not want to make this a personal thing, i feel you have tried to make it that way. and i have not spent gobs of money on deadener. i used to run a SRI on a D17, not afraid to admit that was a waste of money. this is getting political, just because i don't leap onto the latest bandwagon.
i never pick a side til i've heard both sides of the arguement. now they are here. so are we cool? if there is one rule i've found, it's that no one way is always best. can you agree with me maybe a little here? i'm not saying you're wrong.
this said, no matter what you want to do, i personally would be careful with a real jute layer in the doors. our doors honestly are crap for waterproof factor. and if i remember right, jute is that almost hemp-like stuff. if there is a synthetic alternative that would not rot and/or smell, that would be something to consider.
I'm just putting up evidence for people to make their decision about.
If you had read ANY of my posts before about using jute... people asked about the mold, and I had already said, only use the jute if you've sealed up your doors with asphault sheeting (that is what it's meant for, a water and ice guard, literally).
The door has an inner shell and an outer shell. You can see the holes that go through the door. You seal all those holes with the asphault sheeting, and then the inner part (the part where the plastic door piece fits on) is water proof. There are still drains in the outter door shell where water leaks through. So as long as you put the jute basically on the backside of the plastic door panel, you're fine. The Jute is mainly synthetic materials from what I recall anyways, lots of cheap nylon threads. I have taken my door off many months after the first install, and the jute was completely dry, no mold or anything.
Those pictures are not a "final install" they're all someway throughout the install...
Covering up the holes is an important part of sealing the external noises out. Air transmits noise, and especially in the doors, it makes a rear chamber for the speakers so air doesn't flow between the inner and outer chambers (skins per se)...
You basically add it on until you're satisfied that it's heavy enough not to resonante... I wrapped the door skins with my knuckles and you can hear the frequency that it makes go down as you add more asphault sheeting. I put some on the exterior panels (through the holes) and then covered the holes up and did a bunch on the door.
Do the knuckle rap (wrap?) test... if it makes a nice solid noise instead of a twangy noise... you're good to go. Imagine a saw, the old school ones you used to cut wood with... if you can imagine that sound, and adding weight to it, until it's resonating frequency is below a certain point, you have the idea of what you're trying to accomplish.
Those pictures are not a "final install" they're all someway throughout the install...
Covering up the holes is an important part of sealing the external noises out. Air transmits noise, and especially in the doors, it makes a rear chamber for the speakers so air doesn't flow between the inner and outer chambers (skins per se)...
You basically add it on until you're satisfied that it's heavy enough not to resonante... I wrapped the door skins with my knuckles and you can hear the frequency that it makes go down as you add more asphault sheeting. I put some on the exterior panels (through the holes) and then covered the holes up and did a bunch on the door.
Do the knuckle rap (wrap?) test... if it makes a nice solid noise instead of a twangy noise... you're good to go. Imagine a saw, the old school ones you used to cut wood with... if you can imagine that sound, and adding weight to it, until it's resonating frequency is below a certain point, you have the idea of what you're trying to accomplish.
Ocelaris - you are a money saver man. i have an 04 coupe ex i just picked up and don't care for the road noise when i get on the freeway. 100.00 for materials including the jute for the flooring for a quiet ride is awesome! screw dynocrap. i rather by the same material with no name on it because in the end...you get the same result and keep your cash. awesome DIY man. this will be a project in the near future for me and has given me a direction. thanks much Ocelaris
Ocelaris - you are a money saver man. i have an 04 coupe ex i just picked up and don't care for the road noise when i get on the freeway. 100.00 for materials including the jute for the flooring for a quiet ride is awesome! screw dynocrap. i rather by the same material with no name on it because in the end...you get the same result and keep your cash. awesome DIY man. this will be a project in the near future for me and has given me a direction. thanks much Ocelaris
i haven't read through this entire thread, but would you say its as quiet as the acura tsx interior or a standard luxury interior? i'm sure it will be hella of an improvement of what i'm hearing now.
i haven't read through this entire thread, but would you say its as quiet as the acura tsx interior or a standard luxury interior? i'm sure it will be hella of an improvement of what i'm hearing now.
I wouldn't say it's as quiet as any luxury car necessarily, for the amount of work we do... i.e. luxury cars have the car stripped, including the dash out and seats, trunks... they can make air seals much better than our cars have. Also simply their materials weight more, thicker glass, thicker sheet metal etc...
Luxury cars as we know tend to be heavy and make up for it in bigger engines... our cars are more efficient, less power, lighter car... I don't want anybody to get their hopes up that they're going to instantly have a luxury quiet car, but you can probably cut the sound level inside the car by half. A little bit of work will make alot of difference.
Everyday I get into my car and appreciate less noise... took me 3 days of full work, but I did alot of things at the same time. Worth every penny IMO. I even convinced my wife to do the same after she heard the difference...
If you just did the doors and floor/rear seats you'd probably get alot of benefit. taking the headliner, rear quarter panels, and dash apart (in order of difficulty) will make improvements, but in diminishing quantity.
My friend's mercedes S500 has like 1/4" thick glass... (silent almost)
It's alot of work, but if you're already set yourself on sound dampening (dynamat etc...) why not throw some jute in there, make yourself a good seal with the asphault sheeting (i.e inner door skin and outter door skin) and then put some jute inbetween the panel and yourself...
I what I am trying to stress is the whole upper frequency part of noise reduction. Sure you could add 2" worth of asphault sheeting, but at that weight cost, you could have a sheet of jute or fiberglass which weighs almost nothing comparatively.
I wouldn't say it's as quiet as any luxury car necessarily, for the amount of work we do... i.e. luxury cars have the car stripped, including the dash out and seats, trunks... they can make air seals much better than our cars have. Also simply their materials weight more, thicker glass, thicker sheet metal etc...
Luxury cars as we know tend to be heavy and make up for it in bigger engines... our cars are more efficient, less power, lighter car... I don't want anybody to get their hopes up that they're going to instantly have a luxury quiet car, but you can probably cut the sound level inside the car by half. A little bit of work will make alot of difference.
Everyday I get into my car and appreciate less noise... took me 3 days of full work, but I did alot of things at the same time. Worth every penny IMO. I even convinced my wife to do the same after she heard the difference...
If you just did the doors and floor/rear seats you'd probably get alot of benefit. taking the headliner, rear quarter panels, and dash apart (in order of difficulty) will make improvements, but in diminishing quantity.
My friend's mercedes S500 has like 1/4" thick glass... (silent almost)
It's alot of work, but if you're already set yourself on sound dampening (dynamat etc...) why not throw some jute in there, make yourself a good seal with the asphault sheeting (i.e inner door skin and outter door skin) and then put some jute inbetween the panel and yourself...
I what I am trying to stress is the whole upper frequency part of noise reduction. Sure you could add 2" worth of asphault sheeting, but at that weight cost, you could have a sheet of jute or fiberglass which weighs almost nothing comparatively.
well i'm still happy to find this thread. a noticeable improvement in the interior cabin is thumbs up in my book even if isn't to the stats of the luxury standards you mentioned.
let us know when and if you do your firewall area. i'd like to see pics when you tackle that gorilla.
When I strolling around in Home Depot, I saw the carpet padding material. It seems to be constructed from a mix of foam and fibers. You guys said you need fibrous material, so I didn't think that would be the best solutioin.
Why not use the fiberglass insulation that is used in house walls? I know it can be itchy and bad for your lungs, but once you put the panels back on, it should be no problem right?
Well it won't help that much, but I'm sure you'll notice something. Foam is very good at stopping higher frequency noise. Best when combined with a vibration damper like dynamat.
I used carpet padding in my floors, after a layer of FatMat, I added a layer of 1/2" high density carpet padding on top of in, under the carpet. It, coupled with the FatMat made a noticable difference.
i'm not flaming here, don't threaten me.
