I.C.E. & ElectricalPost all your I.C.E. (In Car Entertainment) and wiring questions here. (Audio, video etc.)
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Yes, the "Ice and Water Guard" is just a sticky film... think of it as giant tape. It's a good idea to clean off the surfaces if there is any oil or dirt on the metal first, blast of windex works well...
The Jute is just a big piece of cheap thick clothe/blanket it doesn't stick by it's self, but you can use the 3M adhesive spray, I just kinda layed it up there and smooshed the door panel back on (door panel, interior trim, carpet etc...).
But you don't want the jute getting wet, because it will mold (I think?) you want to use the the ice and water guard to seal out air from the outer panels, and place the jute on the side closest to the interior. What works well for heating insulation works well for sound absorption also... ie sealing the outside out keeps the air from transmitting noise, then it has to go throught the jute to come in the car.
This weekend I got some sheets of compressed fiberglass panels aka Fiberglass duct board, put some clothe over that, and have it around the apartment to stop noise from computers, vents, birds (windows) etc... works phenomenol... for those interested it was like 25$ for a 10'long by 2' wide by 1.5" thick, the joann frabric people thought I was nuts buying 12 yards of cheap black fabric...
I don't wanna be a post B1tch on this topic or anything... but read a few of the longer posts I've made to talk about the different asphault sheetings... fatmaat isn't bad pricewise compared to say Dynamat... but compared to the industrial products with the same properties... it's a ripoff...
Grace Ice and water Guard
108 sq. ft = 66$ (for me a while back w/tax) picked up
Roll Length 11.0 m (36 ft)
Roll Width 914 mm (36 in.)
Roll Size 10.4 m2 (108 ft2)
Roll Weight 15.3 kg (33.6 lbs)
Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil)
Fatmat
100 sq. ft = 100$ plus shipping, with shipping = $129.98
Shipping Weight 31 Pounds
Installation Weight 23 Pounds
Thickness 45 Mil
That's $0.61 a square foot for the 40mil grace ice and water guard
That's $1.29 a square foot for the 45mil Fatmat
Difference? 5mil but that 5mil might be because Fatmat has an aluminum backing... Grace ice and water guard has a plastic one... Which one would you rather have? If somebody wants to do the calculations to compensate for the 5mil difference, be my guest, but 5mil is not 5mm 5 mil is like a piece of paper... and the grace ice and water guard weighs more anyways, and that's what you're trying to achieve, weight on the doors... in addition to also pinning plastic pieces down and joining undamped metal parts.
Check out the Adhesion... 3 pounds per square inch on plywood. If the surface is dry, free of dirt and oils, should stick more than enough and not come off ever... if you stick it together, it ain't never coming apart.
PRODUCT DATA
Property Value Test Method
Color Gray-Black
Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil) ASTM D3767 Method A
Tensile Strength, Membrane 1720 kN/m2 (250 psi) ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)
Elongation, Membrane 250% ASTM D412 (Die C Modified)
Low Temperature Flexibility Unaffected @ -29°C (-20°F) ASTM D1970
Adhesion to Plywood 525 N/m (3.0 lbs/in. width) ASTM D903
Permeance (max) 2.9 ng/m2s Pa (0.05 Perms) ASTM E96
Material Weight Installed (max) 1.3 kg/m2 (0.3 lb/ft2) ASTM D461
yeah i'm trying to achieve weight on the doors but i also like the fact that sound will reflect better off of the aluminum. i'll pay for it. i know there are generic products with aluminum backing but i'm too lazy to find them
You're not going to get any sound reflection off that aluminum that you wouldn't already be getting off of your STEEL DOORS!
Here are some sound absorption coefficients for various materials... And the attached picture the two highlighted areas are plain and Aluminum backed fiberglass insulation... I've taken the difference of the absorption and the aluminum backing only makes a difference in the 250hz region... But the fact that you already have 2 door panels makes it moot... Not to mention the whole idea is to ABSORB sound, not reflect it... the only reason they have the aluminum on it, is because it withstands higher temperatures than plastic. In the original purpose of these materials they were meant to seal heat inside boilers, so aluminum was the product of choice instead of plastic. But when they applied this material to roofs and automotive purposes it became plastic because it makes a better water/heat/cold/temperature barrier than aluminum.
The 70X i.e 703, 705, 701 compressed fiberglass sheets are for home acoustical treatments, boiler liners, and duct lining (though honestly you don't really want fiberglass in a vent)... anyways, they have plain (no backing), plastic, and Aluminum backed. The only difference between the two highlighted ones, is the aluminum backing. You can see that at frequencies below 250hz (baritone singer) the aluminum will block some frequencies, but above 250hz it will substantially increase the noise reflected. these numbers are all percentages... so the difference (aluminum sheet) at 2000hz is -.39% meaning it's going to make almost 40% more noise than without it... The human ear is most "sensitive to the 800-2000hz range because that is the region where the human voice is (hence good reason to be more sensitive to it). So I reccomend the non-aluminum backed asphault sheeting.
If you really want that aluminum backing... do this. Get 2 bottles of the 3m Super adhesive (10$x2=20$) and a big roll of aluminum foil (5$) then glue it ontop of the Ice and Water guard, and you'll still be 40$ ahead which you can buy enough jute (which I highly reccomend for it's higher frequency absorption and cheapness) to soundproof your entire car.
that attachment you listed isn't worth a damn to me because i don't have 1 inch thick insulation or whatever the hell that stuff is, i'm comparing products not even tested there. putting foil on there would look like complete crap, theres no way in hell you will get it on there nice. if you put this stuff on your doors to reduce road noise, you're wasting your time anyways. i put it on to reduce resonance and hopefully gain a little more speaker noise.
i like my music loud. so i want to maximize the reflection of sound if possible. steel does do a good job, but putting on the dampener is going to take some volume away from me with less reflection. like when you pad a practice room, you don't see aluminum on the padding because they want less noise. that what it looks like the stuff you posted is supposed to do. if the material underneath made all the difference, why the hell would you use it on a boiler like you claim that product is used for? it's steel, so improving the sound reflection is hopeless!
use whatever you want, but i still feel that fatmat and all those others are a worthwhile choice. the other stuff will lower resonance, but so would covering it with shrink wrap or doing any of a number of ghetto rigging things to stick stuff onto it.
The point was to compare two identical products, used for sound absorption, one with the aluminum backing, one without. Subtract the two from each other and you get the equivalent of the aluminum reflections similar to what we are looking at.
If you want your music loud, buy better amps and speakers. Sound reflections are not the way to get it louder.
The important part is to make two sealed sections, one behind the speaker, one in front of it. That way you don't get sound waves cancelling each other out. The same could be said of poorly mounted speakers, with air escaping between the speaker mount.
Think of high end speakers... do they have sheet metal behind them? no, they have very heavy wood (sometimes lead lined) and some sort of foam or fabric.
The studio environment you speak of has lots of acoustical foam... The purpose being to disrupt waves from bouncing around the room, and secondly to absorb the noise.
In perfect sound testing environment, you would try to minimize the room and rely almost soley on the speaker. Our Cars are not a perfect sound environment, we have wayyyy too much glass, plastic etc.. (hard surfaces) that give too much reflections as is. A good sounding car will attempt to minimize those reflections.
And "reflections" is not what asphault sheeting is meant to stop. It does nothing for reflections. You need a soft surface like carpet padding or acoustical fiberglass sheeting (do some research, that's what the best theatres use) to stop reflections. reflections are only for higher end frequencies.
Anything that weighs will reduce resonance. Doesn't matter if it's poop or asphault sheeting. Feel free to waste your money on heavy crap.
I was joking about putting aluminum foil on there... maybe YOU didn't get the joke. The plastic door panel already reflects most of the noise from INSIDE the car... the point is that aluminum does squat for resonance. The Jute blocks outside noise. Lower you Ambient noise level 3db and it's the equivalent of making your speakers 3db louder. You want to block outside noise and only let your speakers play out of the hole they're supposed to.
edead, fatmat, dynamt original, grace and water guard are all the exact same stuff. The only purpose they serve is if you have alot of bass and want to stop the sheet metal from vibrating. It also will stop plastic pieces if you use this to tie them down with.
Any sort of mass dampening (i.e. above) will not stop any road noise. You need an acoustical absorbing material. Jute will do wonders.
You can spend 100$ on dampening and absorbtion (66$ for 109 sq. ft of Grace Ice and water Guard, and 44$ on Jute) and get 300 times quiter ride and better sounding acoustics than someone who pays 300$ for "show" asphault.
Anyone who ever wants to meet and see/hear my setup, I'm more than happy to show/share. Bring your favorite CD, and see if my "gheto" rigged setup sounds better than other people who spend 1000$ on bling bling show useless audio hype.
I still don't know what jute is....Those ppl in Home Depot doesn't know what I was talking about when I was saying JUTE.....Any picture that will show it?
__________________ Dynaudio 3-way is the worst system for tuning, but it's the best sound I've ever heard of....Finally, done tuning for staging....
I still don't know what jute is....Those ppl in Home Depot doesn't know what I was talking about when I was saying JUTE.....Any picture that will show it?
Yeah, I have some pics I've been meaning to upload. #9 and #10 are for you 820801BA. The rest should give a pretty good idea about howto install everything. They're labeled #01 through #14 and descriptively as well... I probably can get some more pics of it, but maybe you've seen it now and get an idea, it's kinda like those cheap army blankets that are grey and made out of lots of different weaves/threads...
