HID in TYC setup. With no projector conversion. Video on pg 17.

[ultimatetuner10]

To put it into terms that EVERYONE can understand. Putting an HID kit into our stock housings is like trying to put an STi wing on our trunk. Sure it wil work, but its gona look hella stupid.

To remove this ad, register today for free or log in if already registered!

[electric130]

Originally Posted by gearbox

but since reflector was not made to use hid, the output is not always that good. and alot more glare for other dirvers.

which is also why PNP kits are illegal.

[Kevbotron]

^errrr is that true? it depends what state you're in doesn't it..

[gearbox]

its illegal in every state. if car did not come with factory hid, it is illegal to add it. even retrofit, but its not as obvious.

[electric130]

Originally Posted by Kevbotron

^errrr is that true? it depends what state you're in doesn't it..

here's one for example:

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/nhtsa4304.htm

there's many more out there if you search. but that's NHTSA. that's national. not any state, so that means all states.

[electric130]

Originally Posted by gearbox

its illegal in every state. if car did not come with factory hid, it is illegal to add it. even retrofit, but its not as obvious.

my argument with retro's depends on the housing. stock housing, yes, technically illegal. you take a housing and reflector designed for H4 (that's a BIG "H" for a reason, it stands for "Halogen") and put a projector assembly in it. even this is boarderline because if you use an OEM HID projector, that projector's reflector IS designed for HID light. so you still have an HID bulb in an HID reflector. even beyond that is something like mine. I have TYC's which are DOT approved for our car as a projector headlight assembly. so the housing is designed for a projector, and i have a projector in it. my projector is DOT approved for D2S bulbs and that's what I run.

in the end, would it hold up in court, probably not. but with a D2S projector, my light is precisely aimed on the road and I don't have a bunch of glare blinding oncoming drivers and attracting attention from the cops because of the glare or some retarded blue or purple light color.

my retro may not be legal, but it's passed the North Carolina Safety Equipment Inspections twice with flying colors. to look at it up close or while driving, it looks stock and performs like a stock OEM projector. that's what is safe and what looks good.

(and no, gearbox, this post wasn't directed at you. i know you know the rules and what's good or not )

[sl33pyriceboi]

^well stated electric130

[Kevbotron]

ahhh this sucks I need to get my car inspected and I just installed the PNP kit argh...

thanks for the heads up fellas

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by gearbox

some of the best projectors for hid... if you have no clue about retrofitting and want a good job, and have around $1k to spend sometime, head over to www.retro-solutions.com they do great work.

price on retros have done down quite a bit last couple of years. The price on hid projectors have gone down as well. I would say its closer to $600


single xenon e46 $99

matsushita ballasts $150

harness $60

hid bulbs $100

miscellous materials $40
total = $449

spare set of head lights $60-150

with spare head lights $509-599

if you dont do the reto yourself add about another $250 for labor.

[sl33pyriceboi]

most people charge 250-xxxx

so a basic retro about 850 (bare minimal)

however, the more skilled retrofitters are gonna charge more because of the skill and percision....



i charge 350+ for my retrofits because my projectors not only can move up and down, but they can rotate up to quite a few degrees, meaning? a perfect stright cut off line...every time.

and if u know or heard of a retro god by the name of larry, he charges XXX to to XXXX for retros.

[briand17a2]

I got an e-bay 8000k HID kit for $75 shipped; it was fastastic. Then both bulbs started flickering now and then. Then one or the other would go out. If I cycled the power, they would usually restart. So they work, but not as reliably as I wanted.

The whole point of the HID kit is to:

a) Make me feel all cool 'n stuh
b) Have more light output...percieved anyway.

For B, before anyone goes bonkers about the lumen measurements for HID bulbs at various wavelengths, the overall reason they appear brighter is more total area under the wavelength vs. intensity curve. Yes, the human eye is most sensitive to yellow-ish light, so halogen's give the best contrast at night by default.

For A, HID's are just plain gangster. Until one of them goes out when you are telling someone else how cool they are. In light of the situation, I wanted to keep it from happening. I knew it was some sort of BS electrical problem, because the bulbs would always restart.

I put an old 1F cap in parallel with the bulb +DC rails. While I experienced less overall flickering, arc extinguishment, etc... today I decided that it did not fix the problem. So I started researching all over the place and found this... (we're concerned with part 4)

A. Characterization of HID Lamps
A brief characterization of HID lamps (HPS and MH lamps) and the related ballast requirements are summarized in the following points.
1. Ignition. HID lamps need an appropriate voltage across the electrodes to initiate and mantain glow discharge. Furthermore the ballast should provide sufficient current at glow discharge voltage(appr. 90V for HPS and 180V for MH) forcing the glow-to-arc transition. Therefore, the ballast should provide increased open circuit voltage (>600V) for MH(Type I, 2+1 electrodes) lamps and high voltage pulses (2000 - 3000V, 1µs) for MH (Type II, 2 electrodes) and HPS(2 electrodes) lamps.
2. Warm up time. The warm up time for HID lamps is several minutes (shorter for MH and longer for HPS lamps). In this period the resistance of the lamp (measured by applying square wave current) continuously increases from a low value [6W (400W, MH)] to an essentially higher nominal value [40W (400W, MH)]. Therefore, the ballast should act as a nearly constant current source providing sufficient increasing (nearly linear) power for the lamp.
3. Lamp Voltage Rise. HPS lamps in particular, have an excessive rise in lamp voltage during their life time. This voltage rise can achieve approximately one hundred seventy percent (170%) of the one hundred hour operation value. Therefore, a ballast should keep the lamp power within an acceptable power range derived from the ballast curve.
4. I-V Characteristics. If the lamp current is forced to change with a certain value (DI) the lamps can respond in two different ways as it is shown in Fig 1.
If the current is changed slowly, (i.e. within a minute), and with a certain value (DI) the lamp voltage changes only with a small value . In this case the lamp acts like a non-ideal bidirectional Zener diode. Furthermore, if the change is fast (< 1s) a decreased lamp voltage is produced by the increased lamp current and vice versa.Therefore, if a lamp is connected directly to a voltage source, a highly unstable state can be resulted. Any small current fluctuation can cause extinction or a very fast current increase, which can damage the lamp resulting a practically short circuited voltage source. Evidently, a ballast should act as a current source allowing the lamp to determine its voltage.
5. Acoustic Resonance. At high frequency (f > 4 kHz) operation of HID lamps, standing pressure waves (acoustic resonances) can occur in the discharge tube. This phenomenon may lead to visible arc distortions, resulting in decreased lamp life time and, in some cases, cracking of the discharge tubes. Acoustic resonances are driven by periodic instantaneous lamp power. In conclusion it may be stated that the occurrence of acoustic resonances at high frequency can be considered as a limitation factor for a wide and reliable application of high frequency (< 60kHz) electronic ballasts supplying HID lamps.
6. Cataphoretic phenomenon.Cataphoretic effects may result when a lamp is operated with DC current. Such operation results in demixing of the gas-filling as the sodium is transported toward the cathode side of the tube, making the lamp inadequate for lighting purposes. Therefore, the polarity of the lamp current should be periodically changed by the ballast (i.e. every 10 ms) providing an axially homogeneous discharge. An approximately zero DC component is recommended. Obviously the situation is different for special HID lamps designed for DC operation.

So basically, if your DC Bus volts or current changes at all, as long as it does so slowly, the bulbs will be just fine. However, I have noticed the following events usually result in a bulb going out on one side or the other:

1) Motor RPM > 4000 on slight to major incline (high load)...I think the ignition system is compensating spark voltage proportional to manifold vac; more spark means more current, more current draw means sys DC bus volts goes down; ballast has less volts, so it sends out more amps to compensate, bulb resistance goes up as current goes up, eventually bulb resistance is so high that it goes out. I guess this all happens muy rapido.

2) Sharp right turns. I thought this was a grounding issue somewhere, so used nearly 2 full rolls of electrical tape re-wrapping all the wires, esp. the fuse/fusebox gizmo & the ignition-discharge wire. Turns out this has nothing to do with my problem...I kept a log and found out that for some reason, ~70% of the turns I make in life are right.


So whats the point of all this? Well, if I can keep the current and voltage going to the BALLAST as constant as possible over the period of 1 sec, then my bulbs should not go out.

It seems that the ballast is TRYING to compensate for the sudden voltage drop, and it CAN pull enough amps to do so, but the tiny ass factory wiring is dissipating so much of the current its trying to pull as heat. So, it either catches your car on fire, or the bulb goes out. Luckily, only the latter has happened to me. So, with an upgraded gauge (10-12 should be enough overkill) DC power and ground wire running to the ballast via an automotive relay, this should solve most of the world's HID problems. I checked them out at Radioshack; you can get a 30A automotive DC relay for around $6 bucks. They usually sell crazybig wire too.

So, I recommend that everyone who gets one of these kits to have them wired to their battery via a switchable relay.

PS, if anyone wants a pic of the circuit let me know. When it comes to electricity, asking questions is much better than catching on fire.

[briand17a2]

crap, btw the quote was from http://www.ballastdesign.com/overview.shtml. Good luck ere'body.

[electric130]

Originally Posted by briand17a2

I got an e-bay 8000k HID kit for $75 shipped; it was fastastic. Then both bulbs started flickering now and then. Then one or the other would go out. If I cycled the power, they would usually restart. So they work, but not as reliably as I wanted.

The whole point of the HID kit is to:

a) Make me feel all cool 'n stuh
b) Have more light output...percieved anyway.

For B, before anyone goes bonkers about the lumen measurements for HID bulbs at various wavelengths, the overall reason they appear brighter is more total area under the wavelength vs. intensity curve. Yes, the human eye is most sensitive to yellow-ish light, so halogen's give the best contrast at night by default.

For A, HID's are just plain gangster. Until one of them goes out when you are telling someone else how cool they are. In light of the situation, I wanted to keep it from happening. I knew it was some sort of BS electrical problem, because the bulbs would always restart.

I put an old 1F cap in parallel with the bulb +DC rails. While I experienced less overall flickering, arc extinguishment, etc... today I decided that it did not fix the problem. So I started researching all over the place and found this... (we're concerned with part 4)

regardless of what you posted from that site (doesn't really apply to cars anyway. it's fine for core and coil ballast, but not electronic ballasts), you have an electrical problem with your setup. plain and simple. it's either in the wiring, or in the HID system. you said it.....it started out fine, then it went bad. something's wrong with the car or HID system. that is not normal characteristic operation of HID systems.

A. I've never had one go out, so i can't relate to that, but the whole reason i put mine in was so that i could see better at night. i could care less what others think.

B. There's no "default" about it. HID's are far superior for night time driving, and yes, it has a ton to do with overall lumen output.

Originally Posted by briand17a2

[color=#cc6600]A. Characterization of HID Lamps
A brief characterization of HID lamps (HPS and MH lamps) and the related ballast

....................


So basically, if your DC Bus volts or current changes at all, as long as it does so slowly, the bulbs will be just fine.

you can stop right there. as the site said, it applies to HPS and MH. the Xenon HIDs in our cars are not either one of those and the ballasts that drive all 3 are DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT in design, operation, and performance.

Originally Posted by briand17a2

However, I have noticed the following events usually result in a bulb going out on one side or the other:

1) Motor RPM > 4000 on slight to major incline (high load)...I think the ignition system is compensating spark voltage proportional to manifold vac; more spark means more current, more current draw means sys DC bus volts goes down; ballast has less volts, so it sends out more amps to compensate, bulb resistance goes up as current goes up, eventually bulb resistance is so high that it goes out. I guess this all happens muy rapido.

2) Sharp right turns. I thought this was a grounding issue somewhere, so used nearly 2 full rolls of electrical tape re-wrapping all the wires, esp. the fuse/fusebox gizmo & the ignition-discharge wire. Turns out this has nothing to do with my problem...I kept a log and found out that for some reason, ~70% of the turns I make in life are right.

again, you have an electrical problem here.
1. it's a rare granny-driving day that i shift below 4000 RPM's in first and second gear. that said, my HID's don't flicker at all, even when i hit the rev-limiter around 7200 RPM's (yes it happens a lot).

2. right turn, left turn, either way shouldn't matter. the fact that it does with you even further indicates you have a wiring problem. HID ballasts for cars are electronic and have built in protections. my guess is that something is moving/shifting when you turn and shorting out to ground. then when you stop, recycle power, it has shifted back to normal and that's why they work again.

Originally Posted by briand17a2

So whats the point of all this? Well, if I can keep the current and voltage going to the BALLAST as constant as possible over the period of 1 sec, then my bulbs should not go out.

It seems that the ballast is TRYING to compensate for the sudden voltage drop, and it CAN pull enough amps to do so, but the tiny ass factory wiring is dissipating so much of the current its trying to pull as heat. So, it either catches your car on fire, or the bulb goes out. Luckily, only the latter has happened to me. So, with an upgraded gauge (10-12 should be enough overkill) DC power and ground wire running to the ballast via an automotive relay, this should solve most of the world's HID problems. I checked them out at Radioshack; you can get a 30A automotive DC relay for around $6 bucks. They usually sell crazybig wire too.

So, I recommend that everyone who gets one of these kits to have them wired to their battery via a switchable relay.

PS, if anyone wants a pic of the circuit let me know. When it comes to electricity, asking questions is much better than catching on fire.

i do agree with you recommending a harness. however, you can get a SPDT relay online for about $1.50. i have 4 of them on my wiring harness. and yes, i have read on many accounts of where harnesses will fix flickering problems. and 14ga wire is plenty overkill. 10-12ga is too expensive for what we need. there are also wiring diagrams all over HID Planet for virtually every type of headlight system made if someone wants to make a harness. that's where i built mine from.


okay, so i don't design HID systems by trade, but i am an electrical engineer by trade. i've done several years of research into HID lighting. for starters, HID isn't just for cars. all of the following are HID (High Intensity Discharge)

HPS (High Pressure Sodium)
LPS (Low Pressure Sodium)
MV (Mercury Vapor)
MH (Metal Halide)
Xenon (technically a noble gas element, but coined as a type of bulb for automotive use)

as i said before, all of these use different ballast drastically different from each other. they are not interchangeable with any other. you can't run a HPS bulb on a MH ballast and so on. the wattage of each ballast is bulb specific as well. you can't run a 250w MH bulb on a 175w MH ballast. nor can you run 2-175w MH's on a 400w MH ballast. the xenon ballasts for our cars are designed for automotive use. they are specifically designed for varying supply voltages. you can come over, we'll put a meter on my car and drive around and i'll show you this. they are specifically designed to start up fast and reach operating brightness within a few seconds. other HID ballasts don't do this. it takes several minutes for MH ballasts to get the bulb to operating brightness and color. i ran MH lighting on several saltwater reef aquariums for years.

Originally Posted by briand17a2

So whats the point of all this?

you have an electrical problem with your car, the info you posted doesn't really apply to automotive xenon ballasts, and HID's are still better for night time driving. that is all for now. (steps down off soapbox)

[briand17a2]

Electric130, I agree with your recommendations. As far as the actual gas content of the various "xenon"-branded automotive HID systems, I was operating under the assumption that the xenon gas content was only present to facilitate "instant-on" lamp output; the other gas(es) in the bulb were similar to other, non-automotive HID bulbs like metal halide, high pressure sodium, etc...which is why the bulbs start out dim, then increase to full output. But again, these were assumptions, and without references, its all talk.

As far as having an electrical problem with my car, I agree. I'm thinking Honda's "Electrical Load Detector" voltage regulator is having a hard time predicting what the system load is.
As far as I know, the PCM has an input for the ELD, and a separate output for controlling the excitation of the alternator field windings. This would mean that the PCM is programmed with a "map" of field-winding currents for various system loads? So if the PCM is seeing loads it is not programmed to compensate for, then DC bus volts would always be low as a result.
All I want is my DC bus to stay as close to 14.4vdc as possible. If this means increased mechanical load on the motor, I expect the PCM to increase the motor idle to compensate.
I would really like to find an aftermarket ECU/PCM unit that would let me do all this, scale FI PWM for boost, and whatever else would be fun. Ive looked at Motec & some other brands; it looks interesting, aside from developing the initial fuel & timing maps.
Anyway, the topic is HID, and im on another planet. Ill quit rambling now and let everyone get back to business. It would be nice to have a thread or something here for all 7th gen engineering data...would save on late-night search time.
Thanks again for the info though, i'll be installing those relays asap & post results after I figure out whats up.

[electric130]

Originally Posted by briand17a2

Electric130, I agree with your recommendations. As far as the actual gas content of the various "xenon"-branded automotive HID systems, I was operating under the assumption that the xenon gas content was only present to facilitate "instant-on" lamp output; the other gas(es) in the bulb were similar to other, non-automotive HID bulbs like metal halide, high pressure sodium, etc...which is why the bulbs start out dim, then increase to full output. But again, these were assumptions, and without references, its all talk.

As far as having an electrical problem with my car, I agree. I'm thinking Honda's "Electrical Load Detector" voltage regulator is having a hard time predicting what the system load is.
As far as I know, the PCM has an input for the ELD, and a separate output for controlling the excitation of the alternator field windings. This would mean that the PCM is programmed with a "map" of field-winding currents for various system loads? So if the PCM is seeing loads it is not programmed to compensate for, then DC bus volts would always be low as a result.
All I want is my DC bus to stay as close to 14.4vdc as possible. If this means increased mechanical load on the motor, I expect the PCM to increase the motor idle to compensate.
I would really like to find an aftermarket ECU/PCM unit that would let me do all this, scale FI PWM for boost, and whatever else would be fun. Ive looked at Motec & some other brands; it looks interesting, aside from developing the initial fuel & timing maps.
Anyway, the topic is HID, and im on another planet. Ill quit rambling now and let everyone get back to business. It would be nice to have a thread or something here for all 7th gen engineering data...would save on late-night search time.
Thanks again for the info though, i'll be installing those relays asap & post results after I figure out whats up.

there is a lot of debate as to how the ELD actually functions on our cars. if you look at a schematic, it doesn't appear to affect anything that is connected directly to our batteries. i haven't spent any time looking into it thus far, as i've never had any power problems (stereo, lighting, etc) with anything. at any rate, i don't mean to sound negative, but i find it hard to believe that it's a honda problem when probably thousands (if not many more) do have HID's installed without any problem with the ELD. heck, i have 4 HID's on my car. 2 in the low beams, and 2 in my fogs. my low beams are OEM Matsushita Gen 3 ballasts and the fogs are a PNP 894 kit off ebay. the cheap PNP ballast pull a ton more power than my OEM ballasts do. i think it's due to lower quality parts in construction. all 4 of my ballasts run directly off the battery with relays for control though. so i'd be interested to see if your relays fix your problem. if they do, that's yet another testimonial that you need a harness with HID's. like you said, your lucky you haven't burned up your stock wiring yet.

oh, and for cheap electrical parts, go to www.partsexpress.com that's where i buy all my harness supplies (heat shrink, split loom tubing, relays, sockets, car audio connectors and wire, battery connectors, etc) they have just about everything and it's dirt cheap.