ATEM2144

I've been searching the forums and have found people with similar issues, but have never seen where anyone has figured it out. I have a 2007 Civic automatic. Car is completely stock, stock radio, stock alarm system, no amps, no aftermarket speakers, no aftermarket lighting, completely stock. I had a new oem battery put in at the stealership about a year ago. The problem that I am having started about 5 days ago. I park the car at night and in the morning the battery is completely dead, won't even light up the dash, doors won't unlock with remote, nothing. It starts right up when I jump it and has no problem starting for the rest of the day. Park the car go to work, come out for lunch, starts right up. Come home park it overnight go to start it in the morning and completely dead. I took it to two Advanced Auto Part stores and the battery and alternator test in normal ranges. The only issue that it came up with was a 6.7 Amp current draw, but this was tested while the car was running with the door open, so the light was on. I got home and did some testing with a DVOM meter put in series with the red lead connected to the positive on the battery and the black lead connected to the red power lead on the car. With everything off and the meter dial on the 10, I was getting a reading of .01 flashing to .02 and back to .01, so I think it's flashing from .01 to .02 because of the blinking alarm light. I pulled all the relays in the exterior fuse panel and this had no effect. I then started pulling all the fuses. When I got to fuse #23 in the exterior fuse box the meter went to .000. This fuse is labled as "backup". With the fuse pulled the radio does not work, but it appears that everything else is working. I am going to leave the fuse out and see what happens in the morning. Anyone else encounter this type of problem?

ezone

I'm bored so I'll toy with you.

1) Holy Wall of Words! PARAGRAPHS! Split that **** up man!
I've gone blind.


but have never seen where anyone has figured it out.

I solve problems for a living.
I LOVE these sort of problems.


I park the car at night and in the morning the battery is completely dead, won't even light up the dash, doors won't unlock with remote, nothing.

A flatliner. Better than a hot cuppa to wake your azz up in the morning.

A drain of even 3 amps can kill it overnight.
Perform a draw test after charging the battery back up.

The only issue that it came up with was a 6.7 Amp current draw, but this was tested while the car was running with the door open, so the light was on.

That's not an issue. That isn't even any sort of valid test for the problem you have.
You used the word "draw" here. I'm thinking it doesn't mean what you think it means.

-1.



With everything off and the meter dial on the 10,

10 what? Amps?

I was getting a reading of .01 flashing to .02 and back to .01, so I think

I think your meter isn't able to reach the 1 milliamp range (0.001A) that is really needed to do accurate testing of the condition here, if that is what you are trying to do.

If what you have up there is accurate (my interpretation), then that is only 10-20mA, which is acceptable. You didn't catch the problem in the act (failed mode).

When I got to fuse #23 in the exterior fuse box the meter went to .000. This fuse is labled as "backup". With the fuse pulled the radio does not work, but it appears that everything else is working.

(Keep in mind: If the ranges on your meter don't go low enough, then it may display all zeros while there is still a significant problem.)

Ok.

That's right. It should have gone to almost zero.
That is one of two fuses that we have to install during the PDI, the cars are shipped without those fuses so the batteries don't run down when the cars sit at the plant parking lots for months at a time.

See if the battery goes dead again without those fuses.

Another poster that was here yesterday has one of the front map lights coming on by itself after sitting for several hours. Just a thought.

Depending on what your result is up there, you could unhook one cable from the battery to see if it is killing itself overnight. Yes, I have seen it happen.



Anyone else encounter this type of problem?

Yes.
I couldn't begin to tell you what your car is doing though.

My methods are somewhat different.
I use an inductive ammeter, I don't need to interrupt the battery power to do my initial testing.
The cars are loaded with computers, and if power gets interrupted they can stay "awake" or could allow a computer controlled problem to be reset (disappear because the battery got disconnected).

The computers stay "awake" for a period of time after the key is removed and you exit the car. You cannot obtain accurate test results during this time.
Some cars may be 5-10 minutes, some can be up to 30 minutes and longer.

-------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so I turn the car off, open the hood, and trip the hood latch to the closed position with a screwdriver, so the body computers think it is closed as normal.

Open the trunk, flip down the back seat, and close the trunk lid.

Lock the doors with the fob (if applicable) and put the key on the roof or toolbox.

I clamp the meter on the neg battery cable and walk away.

Drink coffee.
Crave a cigarette.
Eat lunch or something to kill time....
Come back in 20-30 minutes and read the meter.

If the meter reads below 30 milliamps, I am done.

If it is over 50mA, then I have some tracking to do.
Need to know exactly what the excess is, sometimes I can tell what is still on by that number.

Examples:

First and most common problem is the AC compressor clutch. Is it still engaged with the engine off? Stuck relay is a well known problem. 0.5-2A. This is known to be an intermittent problem too. You have to catch it in the act to fail the test.
HINT: If the clutch relay brand is anything but MITSUBA, it is suspect.

If no interior lights are on (should be easy to see all of them, and make sure the trunk light is off....that's why I flipped the seat down.) Sunvisor lights?

200-250mA? The CAN system may still be awake. Some switch input may be stuck on, keeping some of the control units on the network from going to "sleep" mode.
HDS scanner is the next tool in my diagnostic arsenal. I can check a hundred items from the body systems in only a few minutes.
Then a wiring diagram and pointed testing with meters and test lights. Or whatever tool is needed.

I can use my clamp-on ammeter to check individual wires in a harness.

I can use my DVOM to inspect voltage drop across a fuse, to see if there is current flowing through it. Without removing the fuse.

If I pull fuses, I start with the major fuses, not the small ones.
I study what all there is in the car on wiring diagrams.
Study the systems at hand and formulate a plan.
I split the system into sections logically, then follow the path with the draw.
Divide and conquer.
It's a methodical process to narrow down the many choices.
It is very rare that I do things randomly.
I try hard to make sure there is a definite purpose for every move I make.


I have a slew of other tools for stuff like this too.
From a simple Cub Scout Compass, to a high tech RF signal generator and receiver for tracing wires.


HTH?

dbis

I had this problem and here's what I found: Using a clamp on volt/amp meter, I determined that I had a sustained 12 amp drain on the system whether the engine was running or not. The culprit? The rear defrost system. When I pulled the rear defrost relay, the amperage drain disappeared. When I re-inserted it, it returned. I swapped relays: same result. I unplugged the dash switch: same result.

For me this problem began after my voltage regulator went out on a long trip and I fried my battery as a result of a sustained over voltage situation. Hope this helps somebody. I've yet to determine where the short is (I suspect it may be in the defrost wiring on the rear window) but at least my battery isn't draining constantly when the engine is off.

Also, in my 97 Civic, there is no fused circuit for the rear defrost system. There is only a fused circuit for the rear defrost relay and pulling the fuse to this circuit did not eliminate the constant drain.

vislan

Does anyone have the electrical diagram that the Under hood Fuse #23 is part of? That particular circuit is drawing ~400mA current on my 2007 Honda Civic when the engine is turned off. Trying to find out which component is the real culprit.

ezone

23 is the "back up" fuse that supplies power for most of the computers memory and other things that need constant 12v.

Are you waiting a good 10 minutes after everything has been turned off to take your readings? Gotta give the computer modules time to 'go to sleep'.



See if one of the keyed door lock slots is turned, not standing straight up.
Got any non-factory electronics? I've seen some remote start units that can kill a battery in just a couple days.

Missy Marshall

Same here....Had the car for 2 years, no problems. Battery went dead in May, got a new one, the old one was 3 years old and bulging. I don't drive much, after 4-5 days, it's dead. Nothing is on, I don't even have interior lights come on after dark. The alternator tested bad, then the next day it tested good. This time, I've unhooked the negative cable from the battery. We'll see what happens next...

ezone

One of the more common issues is the compressor clutch relay gets stuck on and kills the battery, some as quick as overnight.

It can also make the engine idle bad, make the AC too cold/freeze up, and make the AC burp out a cloud of freon.



Sometimes the headlights have to be on before the alternator will charge enough to pass the tests.

Missy Marshall

So...since then, I have disconnected the negative when I come home, and reconnect when I leave...works great, just inconvenient. A couple times I forgot, and it would start right up for a few days, or sometimes it goes dead overnight. I have not ran the AC for at least 2 months, it went dead on me twice in the last week. When I turn the lights on after dark, the dash lights dim when I turn it from parking lights to headlights...and what about the stereo security system? I don't have to lock the car for that light to start blinking, I've heard of people having that trouble too...but still wouldn't be so intermittent? We did replace 2 of the AC relays with the generic ones from O'Reillys, and I have read that they need to be the higher quality relays, 39794-SDA-A03 is what I have, the higher quality ends in A05... thoughts?

ezone

I suppose you forgot to unhook the battery those times?

You can adjust dash light brightness up and down...or is that not what you meant?

The system may take a couple seconds to get the alternator voltage cranked up after turning on the headlights. (sort of the same reason the headlights may need to be turned on in order to pass a charging system test)


That begins as soon as you shut the car off. The radio has its own blinking light (when equipped), it's separate from the cars anti-theft system.


Updated relay brand is MITSUBA, Honda part number 39794-SDA-A05.
Original failure prone relay brand is OMRON

Cheap $4 replacements from parts stores....anyones guess.


The basic relays are used all over the car to control many different things....most of the time they aren't a problem except when used for the compressor clutch (thus, the updated relay was released for that specific use)...but ya know, anything can happen.

Someone good would need to do some troubleshooting, and catch it in the act, to see if and why it drains batteries, then go from there.

Missy Marshall

Yes, I forgot to unhook the battery, maybe just lazy...if I unhook it, it can sit there for a week and still start...that's the only time it has faithfully started. It's just a PITA. I still got a 3-in-1 jump starter charger at Harbor Freight today. lol.

I may have the dash lights turned down, I'll have to check again..

The stereo alarm...that wouldn't be a culprit?

I didn't have AC for a year..it wouldn't kick in...so finally, this last June, my son swapped a couple of those Omron relays around, and poof, I had AC. He also referenced the snowflake, he thought there were 2 bad, so I got them for $5...that's all they had. So would I just need one of the updated relays? I saw them for $15 on Honda overstock page.

Would the compressor clutch engage or stay engaged if it hasn't been turned on? Is that the plain snowflake one, or the other snowflake? Couldn't I actually remove it since it's winter?

My son has tried a few things looking for the source, he got tips off here and youtube, couldn't figure out, nothing was on. I'm pretty good about not leaving lights on, I have the switch turned off for the overhead so they never come on when the door is opened. And unhooking the battery all the time is making it run crappy, I'm getting error messages, a wrench is showing, and #4, #14, doesn't it need more driving time to adjust itself? I don't drive much, or very far.

ezone

You described normal operation....but as far as being the cause of an unusual battery drain, I can't say yes or no from here.
If there is a proven problem, sure. If not, then it's just random guessing.
If you want to install the updated relay as a preventive measure, that's fine too.

As a troubleshooter, I need to determine the root cause of the problem first and foremost and address it. Accurate diagnosis is where I make my money. I have to come up with the correct answer for a customers complaint. THEN move on to other stuff the car needs.


The compressor is only supposed to engage when the HVAC requests it and the PCM allows it to operate. If it runs at any other time, something is not right.
The compressor is automatically enabled when you select either Defrost position on the HVAC panel, because AC dehumidifies the incoming air and can clear the windshield of moisture quicker. (the light in the AC button does not light for this but the compressor is still enabled)

If you remove the relay, the compressor will be disabled. (plain snowflake)
The other relay, (snowflake in a square??) is for one of the radiator fans. That one should not be removed.

Compressor relay should be #1 in this diagram (I know it says CRV, it uses the same box):


The wrench is the maintenance reminder. (See your owners manual under Maintenance Minder)
The letter and first numbers are service items that are due. The next number(s) would have been % oil life, or it will show the miles driven past 0% oil life as a negative number.
Time to get an oil change and whatever maintenance needs done now?

Missy Marshall

I did use the defrost the other day...the day I didn't disconnect the battery...that relay in the snowflake position had quit working, in 2015, I had no AC til June, and he switched one of the other relays, and I got the cheap one at O'Reillys. So I think I should order the upgrade..

The oil is still at 15%, and earlier we ordered new brake pads, stuff for tune-up, from Amazon...question, where is the cheapest place for struts? And are they specific to the Si?

Missy Marshall

Thank you so much, I'm learning quite a bit.

ezone

If you (or someone, anyone) can tell whether or not the compressor clutch is engaged and running, then you can figure out if it is running when it should not be. That would probably help you determine if it's part of the problem or not.


Make sure the maintenance minder gets reset when the oil change is done.
I didn't realize your car is an SI. Oil services and regular checking of the oil level should be a priority, you really don't want to find out what can happen when it's regularly neglected or allowed to run too low.
I'd even suggest you step up the oil change frequency and change it at 50% instead of 15.
Is there a problem with the struts? I don't like to replace them until there is a real need.

I deal with mostly stock genuine Honda stuff, very little aftermarket.
If your only criteria is "cheapest", you're on your own. ...
Just remember, you usually get what you pay for. Sometimes you don't even get that.

Missy Marshall

The compressor clutch would make noise after the car is shut off?
I got the Mitsuba relay today. I'll pop it in when I leave.

2 years ago when I got my oil changed at Midas, they gave me the estimate of what all was wrong with the car, They said I needed brakes and struts with a ridiculous price tag, they put synthetic oil in without asking me, the "coupon" said free tire rotation, they said my tires were too worn to do it...(but they gave me an estimate for 4 new ones) and the tires passed inspection twice since then. Brakes just started grinding, and only during sudden stops, but the brake pads should be here tomorrow. And tune-up stuff.

All the streets and highways here are crap, torn up, potholes, what would you consider a "real need" for the struts? I've seen all the price ranges, and the brands recommended on here...and yeah, I would love to wait on that. And they are specific to the si, or rather the si is excluded from the cheaper ones.
My criteria for purchasing starts with cheapest, then I go to reviews and product ratings.

Missy Marshall

The car has 102,000 miles on it, I bought it at 93,000 almost 3 years ago.

ezone

No, it would be silent.

However:
If the relay were bad causing the compressor clutch to be stuck on, you may hear the compressor clutch click off and on as you remove or reinstall the bad relay.
If the relay was bad and the clutch was stuck on as described above-- and you disconnect/reconnect the battery, you may be able to hear the same click from the compressor as described above.



Cool.

I'm done reading right there.

It's a chain store.
You need every last thing they sell.
If they don't sell it, you don't need it.

I'll suggest you find a trustworthy mechanic, hopefully one who is very familiar with these cars.

Paying a little more up front for someone who is smart, honest, and isn't going to try to retire off of every car they see can save you big money in the long run.




You've only gone 9k in 3 years.... back when Midas told you it needed brakes, that was probably true.

You may want to inspect the front brakes just to see how much is left, so you can plan ahead.

I start making notes about 'needing brake pads soon' when they have about 3mm of material left on them, but how many miles they could last depends entirely on the driver.


Grinding?
If any pads went "metal to metal" against the rotors, you'll want to address the rotors--either resurface or replace. The rough rotor surface left from metal on metal contact can eat up a new brake pad very quickly.

OTOH if they were only touching the squealers (wear indicator tabs) those don't hurt the surface of the rotors.

Typical failures are usually

Oil leakage, a large amount, and/or
excessive bounce --(google 'shock absorber bounce test')


Once in a while there may be other issues such as unusual noise (maybe clunks that can't be attributed to other bad suspension parts) or physical damage (bent) that would dictate replacement.



I'm sure you can find opinions on every other brand and part under the sun, but I deal with mostly factory Honda stuff, very little aftermarket. I know exactly what I can expect from Hondas parts, and I'm sure most of our customers don't want anything less.


KYB was original equipment on many Hondas so with some research I might be comfortable spending money on their products, but I never have.

The SI does not use the same shocks and struts as the other regular Civics.... they are probably much stiffer compared to other regular Civics of the same generation, and Hondas in general seem to use stiffer shocks and struts than many other manufacturers cars.
(You can't bounce test an Accord and compare that to the bounce test on a Camry or a Lincoln Town Car)

Missy Marshall

I put the mitsuba relay in, I drove last night, when I got home, I did NOT disconnect the battery, I haven't tried it yet.

Midas only to change the oil, their estimate was free of charge. lol And their estimate for brakes and struts was like $2900 ..Right. Hell no.

I baby the brakes, it's only when someone pulls out in front of me that I slam them on...that's when it makes the grind noise, but my normal driving/braking is silent. No squeaks, or grinds under normal driving. And the front pads are in transit.

ezone

THAT may just be the ABS activating as the tires begin to skid.

Missy Marshall

My son said they were bad, too...they're on the way anyway. I don't trust them, they have got a lot worse.

The good news is, I put that relay in, then I intentionally left the battery hooked up...went out tonight, it started right up. It may or may not be that, but I'll sure take it if it is. After all the hassle, could have spent $10 more and not had it...I did get more exercise when the battery died..

Missy Marshall

Several times now I've left the battery hooked up, starts every time. So tonight I ran the AC, the defrost, everything I could run or turn on in the car, and see if it still starts tomorrow.

Missy Marshall

I even waited another day, it has started every time, no battery drain, simple fix. A $15 relay.

ezone

Cool beans.
Make sure to update the thread if it does drain the battery again.

Missy Marshall

Still starting faithfully every time. Got my tune-up done, and some high intensity headlights...next nice day, brakes getting done.

missmiss76541

It wouldn't let me log in, so I had to re-register. I am Missy. Battery has been great, new brake pads on. Since the tune-up, it's got more power, but it got louder...more of a "Waahhhh" sound. my son drove it last week, and said the V-tec won't kick in. It wouldn't for me either, and it was working after the tune-up, beg of January.
So anyway, last Tuesday, I was about 15 miles away on the southside, and it wouldn't start...chuggin, putting, wouldn't turn over...suddenly, never done that, always started. And I had just drove there...sounded just like it wasn't getting fuel, or was flooded. There was a mechanic shop across the street, I had no choice to have them push it over...he said the code came up P1009, cam sensor. I have a 2007 Civic Si with the Vtec. I left a deposit of $200. My car was there for 3 days, and my son took me out there Friday. Mechanic said he had put the part in, the cam sensor, and it was going to be a lot more because of the timing belt and the tensioner arms...my son said "Where is the old part you took off?" The 2 guys started speaking in Spanish to each other, he threw me my $200 and told me to get my car out of there. My son started it, and tried to baby it, but it was chuggin so bad, he got about 2 blocks, and we called a tow truck. It's now in front of my house. Does it sound like the Vtec is stuck on? it starts, but it's real rough...he said it won't go past 5ooo rpms. So he took the belt off, cleaned the little VTS screen, and the solenoid spindle thing..for that, and the VSA light finally turned off. Is it the Vtec solenoid, or more likely the timing chain? I probably only have 200 miles since the oil change. And the vtec solenoid is in the back, correct? I saw one video and they had to take the oil filter off to get the solenoid off. I can't find anything on 2007 Civic Si Vtec problems...

ezone

I'd say to tow it to a Honda dealership you trust. A timing chain replacement job is no task for a rookie.

Chris Wilkins

Actully I have been having the same issue with my civic ex. My battery was dying every night and I couldn’t find an issue.
I took both relays out and replaced them and still the battery died Got an auto electrician out and found the drain was the radio/computer/sat nav.
The fuse was removed and found that the radio clip wires were grounding the car and flattening the battery.

I’ve replaced the radio and it’s connecting leads for £60 on eBay the and haven’t had any problems since.
There are many reasons for a civic to have a battery drain, so never assume you know it all. My electrician had never come across the problem

8404haynes

I had the same problem with the battery draining over night. I had a parasitic draw at .43 set on 10amp setting. The draw was coming for the fuse 29. So I took the dash apart unhooked everything I could. I saw when I disconnected the instrument cluster I had a drop in the drain. I replaced the cluster it was not the problem.

short answer to my problem was the plunger thing that tells your car the door is closed. I didn’t expect it being the problem because it functioned like normal. If I open the door the chime would start and lights would come on. Shut the door and it stopped.

I realized by luck when I manually hold the plunger down the drain went away. The door has a rubber bumper in it that prevented the door to push the plunger all the way in. Remove the bumper and have no more problems.

Plunger

Bumper. Just take it out

4pointslow

Have you still been problem free since finding this? I am having the same parasitic draw on fuse 29 on my 2012 LX. My door ajar switches also function normal. I would not have ever suspected this to be a culprit. I figured they either work or they don't. Was it just your drivers door switch that acted up? Or all the doors?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Have you tried the checks listed in the thread?

You are not going to find the cause if you don't test. there are miles and miles of wiring in a car, could be any of them.