ScruffyLG

I have a 2008 Civic LX that is used infrequently (once per week). It has a factory-installed alarm . It has been living outside in the Northeast cold this winter. (My 1-car garage currently houses my wife's Accord.)

I tried to start the car recently after the snow melted from a big snowstorm, and I got no discernible starter sound. I had thought I perhaps left the lights on for days and that the battery was completely drained. So I tried to jump start the car using my wife's Accord and I again got nothing--no sound of the engine turning over after 10+minutes.

It occurred to me that the lack of starter sound is what I have gotten in the past when I've been sitting in my car with the car off, and accidentally armed the alarm. So I wondered if the alarm was somehow triggered. I press the "arm" and "disarm" buttons, but nothing happens. I see the little red light on the key fob turn on and off, but I don't hear the locks engaging on the car.

I had replaced the battery in the fob only weeks earlier, but I tried replacing it again, and got the same thing. The car will not lock or unlock using the key fob, and the car will not start.

Unfortunately (!) my wife cannot find the other key fob for this car, so I cannot test (yet) to see if the fob is broken.

Does anyone have any suggestions at this point? Does this sound like an alarm problem...or is this possibly an electric problem? Could it be related to the cold? Anything else I can do to diagnose the issue?

If it's an alarm problem, how to I disengage the alarm if my fob isn't working? I'd like to avoid having to tow the car somewhere to get it fixed.

Any suggestions/ideas are appreciated. Thanks.

ezone

No starter action, no power locks,

But you aren't clear on whether or not there is anything electrical in the car that works.
Got basic electrical power? Does the dash light up when you turn the key on? Do the headlights work?
You speak of a 'fob', is it separate from the ignition key? Can you post a picture of it?
The factory key remote has 'lock' and 'unlock', not arm and disarm.
The factory alarm only makes the horn honk and the lights flash if you set it off.
The factory immobilizer does not disable starter operation, but it will prevent the engine from running.

ScruffyLG

Thanks for your questions, ezone.

Yes, I guess I forgot to provide some important detail.

First of all, I'm using the standard Honda ignition key with the lock, unlock, and red panic buttons. I'm sorry I was careless with my terminology.

I went outside to check the car now. The lights don't turn on. I tried again to start the car, and I heard a brief buzz the first time I tried to start the car, but got nothing after that. No lights on the dash...nothing at all, though I did notice that the backlights on some of the accessory buttons (e.g., the ones that move the mirror) briefly came on.

However, when I tried to start it earlier tonight, a couple icons on the dash were slightly lit very briefly.

I'm not sure I understand this. As I said, there have been times when I've pulled off the road to take a nap, turned off the car, and then been unable to start the car again. (No starter sound, just clicks). After pressing the "unlock" button on the key remote, things went back to normal. So it seems in that instance that the starter was disabled, wasn't it?

I appreciate your helping me. Please ask more questions if I haven't provided you enough information.

ezone

This all sounds like either a dead battery, or poor connections between the battery posts and/or cables and/or the rest of the car. More checking is in order.

The battery neg cable attachment point on the body tends to get rusty causing a bad connection too.

I was just saying that the factory did not put anything in the car that disables the electric starter motor. The factory alarm can't disable it, nor does the factory immobilizer system. (read more in your owners manual if needed)

If the starter didn't work, I'm sure there was a reason but it was not caused by the factory alarm.

EDIT: Could your dealer have installed additional aftermarket security features you aren't aware of?

ScruffyLG

I purchased the car used, but it was only one year old. I know which dealer the car was purchased at...but i don't know the details of the purchase.

I will try to jump-start the battery again tomorrow. The battery is only a year or two old, so I think it should hold a charge. But the last time I tried jump-starting it, I didn't get anything but "clicks" when i tried to start it. I'll take a closer look at the battery terminals.

I'll report back.

Thanks again for your help.

ezone

That does not mean it is good.

A car battery is not designed to be run dead, nor sit in a discharged state, that shortens its lifespan dramatically.

ezone

A weak or dead battery will freeze the liquid inside it when the temp drops below freezing, that ruins the battery.

ScruffyLG

Thanks for the info...I had no idea.

Forgive the naive question, but does your battery have to work in order to successfully jump start the car? (I know the jump start won't last if you have a bad battery and remove the other car's cables, but until you do, while the cars are still tethered, will it still jump?)

ezone

A jump start can work without any battery in the car at all, BUT the cables and connections have to be good enough to support a lot more power than if it had a halfway charged battery...if that makes any sense.

A starter draws a lot of power (100-150 amps) by design, and oftentimes it's difficult to get sufficient current to flow through cheap frayed cables, tiny contact points, rusted clamps, corrosion on the battery cables/terminals, poor connections, etc., to get one started.



Might be akin to trying to operate a 2000w electric space heater in the house using a thin extension cord intended for a string of indoor Christmas lights hooked to an outlet that fits loose and quits when you wiggle the plug.....it's not gonna last long, if it works at all.

ScruffyLG

Hi ezone and anyone else who might help me with this issue that has yet to be resolved.

Basically, I have not needed my car for the past month-and-a-half and it has sat outside through the cold weather. The temperature is now warm, and I'd like to get my situation worked out.

I opened the driver car door successfully with my key, but there was not even enough of a charge on the battery for the "open locks" button on the driver's side to work.

I tried jump starting the car by hooking it up to my wife's Accord, and letting the Accord run for 5-to-10 minutes before trying to start the Civic. I got nothing whatsoever...no clicks, no starter sound, no lights no nothing. Dead.

So I'm trying to figure out both (a) what to do now, and (b) how to prevent this in the future.

From the prior discussion here, the working hypothesis is that perhaps my battery froze, and that, because I let it sit a long time (couple months), and perhaps because I tried to jump start it in freezing weather, that I inadvertently damaged the battery to the point where it won't hold any charge and must be replaced. My battery was an reasonable-quality Interstate Battery (recommended by Consumer Reports) that was installed within the past year or two.

My choices seem to be: (1) replace the battery and see if that solves the problem, (2) buy a battery charger, and see if I can charge the battery (and if not, buy a new battery), or (3) give up messing with it myself and get the car towed to someone competent to diagnose whether it's a battery issue or whether I have damage to other parts of the electrical system. Of course, I'm open to other alternatives.

I'm tempted to try replacing the battery first. That said, I don't want this problem to happen again, and if the primary culprit was the New England weather, I want to make sure I get a battery that can handle starting a car that has been left outside in freezing weather. If I need to change how I maintain the car and/or battery in the winter, then so be it. (This is my first East Coast winter in 30 years...I moved back here from California.)

What's the solution here? Do I need to get a high-quality battery with as many CCAs as I can find for wintertime starting? Or is the solution to put a blanket on my engine, or perhaps was the problem that I didn't start the car often enough in the cold weather (i.e., I work at home and sometimes might go a couple weeks without using my car)?

If you recommend a high-quality battery, do you have any recommendations for brand/specs/etc.?

I'm open to whatever help anyone can provide.

ezone

The car draws current from the battery at all times to keep memory and electronics alive. It will drain a battery if you let it sit long enough.
IMO the solution is to keep the battery charged up to avoid it draining down and subsequently failing.

So.....
I'd charge the battery up, then test it.
If you have to take it out of the car and take it to a parts store to do so, go ahead. If you want to buy yourself a car battery charger, go ahead.


If it passes a load test after charging, then install it and use it---- but understand its life may have been significantly shortened by sitting in a discharged state.

If it fails the test after charging, replace it.

(If the battery tester used is not a real load tester, there's a chance it could pass the test but still not be able to start the car--LBVS, we see this all the time)

If the car will sit for long periods, buy and install a battery maintainer and plug it in whenever the car is parked. You can buy a battery maintainer for about $8-30 beans at various places (google it)



I use a modified cheapo harbor freight battery maintainer (modified with a more reliable 12v power supply but otherwise kept the same electronics) on my truck which sits for months at a time.....If I didn't keep it plugged in, the battery would be dead before 2 weeks is up.
I just got it out last weekend for the first time since .......it was parked about last August, and it cranked nice and fast.

ScruffyLG

Thank you, ezone! This is great info, and you've explained it all very well. I really appreciate your taking the time.

I have one last question.

My wife and I each have a car, but only one garage space. Thus, my car spends the winter outside, and I work from home, so I may not need my car for days (or even weeks) at a time, though I am available to start it if need be.

I wouldn't want to hook up a battery maintainer to car while it is outside in the snow during wintertime--at least it sounds foolish to me--so my question remains, what is my best strategy for making sure i don't repeat this battery episode next winter? Should I start my car every couple of days whether or not I plan on using it? Is there a minimum time it should run? Should I make sure (over my wife's objections) that I alternate use of the garage with her every couple of weeks?

Thanks for any guidance you can provide.

Also, I think I will invest in a battery charger and load tester. I'll do the research online, but if you have any recommended brands/models, let me know.

ScruffyLG

One more question in addition to the ones I just asked.

While doing research on battery chargers (at least the more inexpensive ones), it appears that they will not charge a battery that has been reduced to below 2 volts.

I've forgotten my basic electronics, so forgive me....if my battery appears completely dead (i.e., no electric items in car working at all, no sound when trying to start, etc.), does this mean that the battery is likely to be below 2 volts and won't respond to one of these chargers?

If the battery is below 2 volts, what are the options? Can it only be resuscitated by someone with an large, expensive charger, or does it mean the battery needs to be replaced anyway? Just trying to understand. Thanks.

ezone

Damnit, I wrote a long reply and it disappeared.

Not sure why this would sound foolish if done safely.

People have no problem plugging in a Diesel truck block heater and battery warming blanket every night all winter long (or just about every car in Canada) and don't think twice about it.

You could even wire a maintainer semi-permanent into the battery cables or fusebox and simply connect your extension cord when you park it.

You would certainly avoid the hassle of wandering across the frozen tundra every 3rd day to start the engine and run it for 20-30 minutes to keep the battery charged up, or having to go out to connect a battery charger and run it for 30 minutes every few days.

Are you reading that a battery below 2v shouldn't be charged, or are you reading the charger will measure voltage first and not operate at all if the battery is too low?


If you really need to know how low (volts) a battery is, you could pick up a DVOM and use it to check.

A smart charger might refuse to charge if it decides a battery is too low.
Safety and all that.
Our shop has a smart charger, it's probably the 2nd most aggravating POS equipment in the shop. (First place goes to the all electronic battery tester that can pass a battery that won't even start the car)
We run batteries down in the shop on a regular basis, sometimes completely flat dead. (it's never intentional, but it happens).
I grab the old standby (stupid) charger every time, it will never tell me it's dangerous to charge a dead battery LOL
Or a jumper pack if it has to go right now

At home I have an old Sears charger, it's stupid simple with 2 switches (6v/12v, 2a/10a/50a) and a meter on the front. It WILL do what I want, it will never refuse to charge a flatliner battery. I rarely need to use it, but it's there if I need it.

I keep a maintainer on my truck.
I need a battery maintainer for my Hog during the winter LOL

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A lead-acid car battery is never designed to be run dead. Ever. That is quite hard on it and can drastically shorten its lifespan.
It's intended use is for starting the car, and that's it. That's all. It's design and construction reflects that intended purpose. It's made to deliver a whole lot of amps for a very short period of time (make the electric starter run to get the engine started), then be slowly recharged by the cars charging system (alternator) as you drive to your destination.

In contrast, a deep-cycle marine type battery is also lead-acid design, but it's designed to be run completely dead slowly and recharged slowly time and time again. (think of boat trolling motor used for hours at a time)


==============================

A battery charger is not the same as a maintainer, they have different intended purposes. (unless you buy one designed to do both)

A battery charger is designed for rapidly recharging a battery that has been run down for whatever reason. It cannot be left running indefinitely, it is intended for short term use-----several minutes to a couple hours, depending on charge rate and state of charge....and you don't always know the true state of charge--you'd need to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte (sulfuric acid).
Overcharging a car battery can ruin it, and most any charger can do this if you leave it on too long.

A maintainer is designed to be left on indefinitely, it self regulates to maintain a fairly high % of battery SOC (state of charge) and it does it very slowly (charge rate is in the milliamp range). It will turn itself on at a certain voltage (guess maybe 12.2v) and turn off at a certain voltage (guess around 12.4-12.6v), repeat indefinitely as long as it's plugged in.

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Did I miss anything?

ScruffyLG

Awesome...more good stuff. I have more follow on questions.

My thought about the possible foolishness of using a maintainer outside was simply that water and electricity don't mix, and I don't know how to set it up safely in those conditions, but I can simply look it up online.

I'm not sure what you mean. How can a dead battery be run? Do you mean the load caused by the electronics when the car is off (with a dead battery), or do you mean someone trying to start the car when the battery is dead?

----

I went to Amazon to look at battery chargers, and it seems that many of them today combine the function of a charger and a maintainer. And for a newbee/ignoramus like me, it's confusing.

For example, I found a number of combination charger/maintainers that supply less than an amp. It wasn't until I looked much further that I realized that they were OK for "charging" lawnmower batteries, but only good for "maintaining" automobile batteries.

These chargers were the ones that said that they would refuse to charge a battery with less than 2 volts.

There's another on Amazon (4.9 / 5.0 rating with 3500+ reviews) that only delivers 1.25 Amps, but people claim (in the reviews) that it successfully revives their "dead" batteries and keeps them on a trickle-type charge afterward (i.e., no overcharging). Should I consider this one? There's a similar model from another manufacturer that seems to offer the same functionality with 3.5 amps.

It seems that the better chargers ($50 to $100), like yours, deliver 2, 5, or 10 amps. Is there something in the specs I should be looking for? If one goes up to 50 amps, does that mean I can also use it to jump start my car if necessary (assuming the battery is not completely dead)?

I'm trying to get something that will reliably work, and I'm willing to pay a little more for a feature that might be useful...but I don't want to break the bank...as you can tell, I'm not a sophisticated user.

If you have any recommendations on a charger/maintainer combination, let me know.

Thanks again.

ezone

Sorry, general terms used in the shop.....Drained electrically.

Run dead = Operate (run) a power consumer until the battery is depleted of electrical charge.

Got links to what you are looking at?
Drive to Sears, Kmart, Home Depot or Walmart etc., and see what's on the shelves there?


My dad has a unit that does both functions.



I figured a maintainer wired semi-permanent in your car would more convenient than anything else to help keep a good battery good.
I would want to connect it so I would not have to open the hood to hook it up....... I can picture maybe pull up to the parking spot, open the door, grab an extension cord and connect it, toss the unit on the floor and close the door on the extension cord. Walk away to the warm house and sip coffee. Or beer, whatever.
Use a ground-fault circuit interruptor if you are worried about shock or rain.


Personally.....For a charger, I want the stupidest one I can get, I want total control over it. I don't want it to tell me it's too scared to work. The only automated feature I'd want is maybe an automatic timer (because I know I forget stuff, like turning it off at the right time)

I prefer separate units, but I also have more than one vehicle.
I connect the maintainer to my truck when I park it (open the hood, clip it onto battery, not permanently installed),
I really should put another maintainer on the bike either permanently or just install a connector somewhere convenient to make an easy hookup when I park it....and keep the separate battery charger for anything else that might need attention in a hurry.

My Sears charger is probably 30+ years old (guess).

My maintainer came from Harbor Freight, dirt cheap, and after about a year of use the transformer (12v power supply, plugs into the wall outlet) quit so I wired up a different 12v power supply and connected it to the original electronic regulator. I think it can deliver something like 200mA max, which is more than enough for long term storage periods.
EDIT: HF says it was 500mA



A boost to help start the engine seems like about the only time one would really need a setting that high.
I wouldn't want to charge a battery that high longer than maybe a few minutes.

ScruffyLG

Sure, if you don't mind looking at some links....

Here are the two highly-rated ones on Amazon that combine charging and maintaining:



I tend to do my research and shop on Amazon because of the ease of searching and the large number of reviews. Also, it saves time over having to go to stores (where I cannot tell the quality of one unit from another just by looking at the boxes).

Here's one that has 2/10/50 Amp modes:


There's another version of this Schumacher that is manual, but I like the idea of "set it and forget it" rather than having to remember to turn it off to prevent overcharging. If I knew more, perhaps I'd insist on more control.

This one offers a 75 Amp mode and claims to be able to "recondition" a battery--whatever that means.

Here is a Schumacher unit that is just a battery maintainer, but it allows you to plug the unit into the cigarette lighter opening (or whatever they call it these days) instead of the battery terminals, so you can charge it without raising the hood. Do you approve of this method? Is that the kind of convenience you were suggesting I consider?


Any thoughts/comments are welcome. Thanks.

ezone

Schumacher used to be a good name brand, but I guess just about everything is made in China nowadays LOL
Go for whatever you feel that has good ratings.


The first one, Battery tender plus, the float/charger has a connection package available with ring terminals that could be a decent way to semi-permanently connect direct to the battery cable ends if you wanted to do it there. You'd need to run the cords somewhere convenient safely though.
The 1.5a wouldn't make a rapid battery charger, at best that's a trickle charger (slow charge, short term)
Picture the Mrs left the headlights on in her car (or a door ajar, dome lights stayed on) all night and the battery is flat dead, she wakes you up at 6AM because she has to go to work NOW. You need a jump start or a high amp charger, that 50a boost from the bigger battery charger should get it going in 5 minutes or less. (assuming the battery didn't freeze in the cold because it was dead)

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You can't use the cig lighter as a hookup point, these cars only power up that socket with the key on so that's not an option.

One could instead connect (whatever maintainer unit you choose) to a constant power source circuit in the dash fuse box, that way everything would be safe and dry in the passengers compartment area....save for the extension cord you'd plug it in with.


Or, you know, dink with opening the hood in the cold each time you park it and connecting, then same routine to disconnect when you use the car.
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The unit that has the reconditioning feature might be interesting (not sure I agree with the explanation though), but it also looks a good bit 'electronicy' which might mean a short and delicate lifespan.
I personally prefer the low tech dinosaur that's just about impossible to kill....(I want these things to work 50 years from now too LOL)


This is the unit I picked up from Harbor Freight, I swear it was about $5 at the time (I figured WTH, I can't go wrong for $5)
http://www.harborfreight.com/automot...ger-69955.html

ScruffyLG

One last (?) question.

Suppose I get one of those chargers that doesn't engage unless the voltage is at least 2.

Is there something I can do to the battery to get it's voltage up to that level prior to trying to charge it with the automatic charger? (E.g., can I connect it to my wife's car as if to jump start and turn her car on and leave it running for awhlie?)

ezone

If you use it as a maintainer religiously, the battery voltage would never get anywhere near that low in the first place.


To answer the question, that would put some charge into the dead battery, and yes I'm sure you could fake it into working using jumpers.

mcnoople

It isn't just diesel owners that use block heaters. I have 1 in my accord. I get home I plug it into the cord coming out of my evergreen bush. When I go somewhere I unplug the car and put the cord back into the bush.

I have considered adding a battery maintainer and a battery blanket as well. I have decided against the battery blanket due to the possibility of overheating the battery since my winters generally aren't that bad.

It is real easy to tell the difference between a night that I forgot to plug in the block heater and a night I remembered. The car spins much faster and fires on the 2nd rotation.