giorgos236

I have an 06 SI with no mods - stock radio. I bought the car a month ago and when it sits unused for 2-3 days the battery dies. When I drive it daily it is fine. The car has anew battery and my mechanic checked all the obvious solutions (battery, alternator, wiring).
He has found an electrical draw coming from the fuse compartment but he says he does not have the expertise to take it further suggesting I should take it to a dealer.
My questions:
- Has anyone had a similar issue and is there a DIY solution?
- I have an OBD reader, would that give me any info to go by?
- If I have to take it to a dealer what do you think should be their proper testing sequence? I do not want to be charged for non-necessary tests.
Any advise would be highly appreciated, I think I may be looking at a major expense here.
Thank you.

ezone

Nope.
You don't necessarily need a dealer, but you do need someone who can test and track down a draw.
Start the car, make sure the HVAC panel is turned OFF, and look under the hood to see if the AC clutch is engaged. (You have to be able to discern if the clutch is engaged or not, visually.) That's probably the most common problem draw, the AC clutch relay gets stuck on.
If that's it, replace the clutch relay with the updated part.
If not, then keep going.

Look for the easy stuff, like the trunk light stuck on (flip the rear seat down to see) or any other light stuck on.

Look under the dash for ANY non-factory wiring. Used car lots, buy here pay here lots often wire in GPS trackers or payment insurance devices, they use battery power.



Use an Ammeter, measure the current drain...
Typical good value will be less than 40mA after allowing the car to sit closed up, locked, and undisturbed for 20 minutes.
Any higher than that needs tracked down.

You typically will be told a dollar figure as a checkout or diagnostic fee. You agree to it, or not.


No two people can be expected to do the same things.
A master rarely follows any guide.
A master will adapt strategy on the fly.

You don't want the rookie lube guy doing this, nor the guy who hangs brake jobs all day long.
You do what the rocket scientist that is good with electrical stuff. Sadly, a majority in the profession aren't real good with real electrical problems.

giorgos236

Thank you for the step by step. How do I check visually whether the AC clutch is engaged? Is there a moving part I will be able to see?

After AC clutch, lights and loose wires anything else specific I should go for? I have heard the door locks may drain power, anything else? Should I start removing one fuse at a time to see in the amp changes?

ezone

The first full minute of this video is nothing but the compressor cycling on and off. You can see the clutch hub spinning when the clutch is engaged, then the hub stops when the clutch is disengaged.
This is on an older Thunderbird or something, it's only here to show a generic compressor operating, cycling, clutch turning on and off..





Not necessarily loose wires, a good installer will usually tie up loose wires so they don't dangle. Non-factory stuff under a dash is usually somewhat obvious once you notice it though.

On fuses.....I do even less intrusive testing. I try to avoid removing them, instead I measure millivolts across the two exposed test holes to check for any flowing current. This way I don't "wake up" any of the computers by disturbing power.
Most people would just pull fuses out though, watching to see which one makes the ammeter value drop to normal or nothing.

If you go yanking fuses, be aware the engine compartment fuses can have many more smaller fuses 'under' them, usually in the dash fusebox. So if you pull one in the engine compartment and it makes a difference, there might be another half dozen under the dash to investigate.

giorgos236

Great, I will let the car rest for a while and then start testing the fuses. What kind of millivolt numbers would cause a leak capable of draining the battery in 3-4 days? Thanks.

ezone

Doesn't matter. You would only be looking for a value other than zero as it would be an indication of SOME amount of current flowing through that fuse.

------

What DOES matter is getting a useful ampere or milliamp value from an ammeter placed in series in one battery cable.

If you have a 2A drain on the battery that's far too much, it would kill a battery overnight. Track it down.

If it's only .020A that's great -- it should last at least a couple weeks if the battery is good..

ezone

Oh yeah if you have an SI with the 2.0 engine the compressor is all the way at the bottom of all those pulleys, and toward the front of the car.

giorgos236

perfect, I will check for anything moving after turning it off for 20 minutes. But I doubt it is something this obvious because I would think my mechanic would have found it.

ezone

You have to run the engine in order to see anything.



Nah.
It's not obvious at all unless you're looking for it.
It helps to know what some common problems are and what to look for.

Plenty of dealer techs can't figure it out either.
Few techs anywhere are good with electrical problems.
Electrical is like 'The Final Frontier' of auto repair.


I've worked with people who can't notice an uneven amount of brake lights (2 on the left, 1 on the right? Looks ok to me! DUH) nor install a dang light bulb correctly. Forget actually figuring out why one doesn't work.

giorgos236

So after the car sat for a few hours I connected the meter between the negative cable and the battery. There was indeed a voltage reading so we know there is a leak somewhere. My 06 civic SI has two fuse boxes (?). I checked all fuses under the dashboard none of them gave a reading. Then I checked all fuses in the engine compartment, again no reading. Does the civic have a third fuse box? Could it be cosmic rays?

ezone

You CANNOT do this and have any iota of accuracy. This is not the 60s, you will ALWAYS see "voltage" if you connect a voltmeter like this because there are many things in the car that consume battery power at all times, this is normal and correct.

You have to use an ammeter. Not voltmeter.
You measure larger amounts of current in amps.
You measure the small 'key off draw' current in milliamps....after confirming there is not a large drain first.

I already posted a general spec in the replies above.

It's easy to blow the internal fuse in a meter and see a false zero reading too.

giorgos236

This is the multimeter I have, what setting should I use on the dial?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...015B/202353292

If the above does not work, should I get this:

Thanks! [and excuse my ignorance]

ezone

The setting for amps, 10A (VmA) or 250mA, lower right of the dial



Hmmm. Most meters have a separate lead connection for amps. I guess that one doesn't.


Google: 'how to do a parasitic draw test', make sure it's describing the how to using an ammeter.

chuffsy

Here is 2008 civic. Not sure how the Si is laid out . Just to show you where the ac compressor is.

ezone

^Same spot, just more hidden on the K engine.

giorgos236

I am the original poster. Sorry it took a while to respond, I had to deal with back issues. So I checked my engine fuse box and it seems the electrical draw is coming from fuse #10, called the Back up fuse. It seems that when unplugged my radio and key fob are not working, everything else seems to function. Should I go now in the inside fuse box to narrow down the problem? Any specific fuses in the inside box that relate to #10 on the outside? Any wiring diagrams would be highly appreciated. - Thank you.

ezone

Ignore the arrows, I just found this on a google search.

Your pic looks like the yellow blob should be relay position #11....Ignition coil relay....


If the relay rattles when you shake it......Uhhhh....it should not rattle.

Now you need to figure out if the relay is stuck on, or if it is being held on "powered up" electrically.

Ignition key OFF

Plug in and unplug the problem relay a few times, slowly, with your fingers..... If it clicks as you do this you should be able to hear and feel it click.
If the relay clicks as you unplug it and plug it in, then the relay is not stuck (well, probably not right now) and there's something keeping it powered up and engaged.

IF it does not click, then it's probably stuck on and you can swap with one of the other 4 pin relays handy as a test.
Relay 4 is the rear defroster relay, that should be safe to use for a test swap.

Relay 1 in the above diagram is for the compressor clutch....if you plug in a stuck relay in that hole you should get a loud click form the compressor clutch as it engages (audible confirmation that it got powered up)
If it is stuck on, beating on top of the relay will usually cause it to release and open the contacts.


This is a pretty ordinary 4 pin relay, so here's an ordinary diagram:


Pins 3 and 5 turn B+ on and off to the four ignition coils as the relay electromagnetic coil is powered or unpowered.

Check for a power and a ground in the fusebox socket on pin positions 1 and 2.
One of them will have constant power.
The other should not be grounded while the key is OFF. If it is grounded with the ignition key off, that's a problem. See below.

If you find it is being grounded thus holding the relay on, move to relay #3 in the top diagram and see if it is also being held on......then do the same checks there. That is "PGMFI main relay 1" and its two control circuits (pins 1 and 2) are parallelled with the ignition coil relay #11 pins 1 and 2.


Let me know what you find


Sorry for rambling on this, it was sort of assembled in hodge-podge batches.

giorgos236

Thank you for the info but I think now the problem is exterior fuse #10- please my above edited post. Any help is highly appreciated.

ezone

Oh great... you coulda saved me a bunch of typing if I had seen that an hour ago. LOL
How much draw? How many amps or milliamps? It SHOULD have some draw on that fuse, but how much do you have?

The BACK UP fuse should be labeled #23 (10 amp). It supplies battery power for a bunch of stuff in the car that requires a constant power for memory.
Radio, gauge cluster-- speedo and tach, data link connector, immobilizer-keyless unit, MICU, and Navi if equipped.

ezone

Do you ever have children in the car?

giorgos236

On occasion yes, kids have sat at the back.

Also, the draw is significant (maxes out the 250mA scale, goes to almost zero when #23 fuse is taken out).

Any suggestions on what to test next? THanks and my apologies for my prior error.

ezone

Any change missing from the center trays?
Does the radio jingle?
For some reason, small kids like to stuff change into the CD slot in the radios.


Change scale and see what the draw is?


Hold on.
Set it up then wait.

Roll down windows, pop trunk and push the seatback down, close trunk, look in the back seat and make sure the trunk light went out....
Close doors, and I use a screwdriver to trip the hood latch (simulate closed hood).


Set up ammeter between post and cable, then clip on a jumper wire as a shunt across the 2 meter leads so you don't blow the fuse in the meter when you lock the doors.

Lock doors with remote, and push lock again so the horn honks.

Remove shunt.
Check that meter shows a draw.

Wait (up to 20 minutes, but an 06 will probably be done by 10 minutes) for all the computer modules in the car to go to sleep.

Now read milliamps. If under 40mA, all is well.
If over, how much draw is it? (knowing what the actual draw value is can help point in a direction for diagnosis)

ezone

I guess what I'm getting at is, 'did you wait long enough to get a true reading?'

giorgos236

Thanks for the info. So I verified that #10 on the external box is drawing a lot, maxes out my 250mA analog meter. Then I took each of the internal fuses out - while the #10 was in place - and none of them seemed to drop the amps.

So my question is whether there is a connection that goes straight to #10 outside while bypassing the entire internal box. Is that possible?

ezone

Let's get this thing straight here: Fuse (position) #10 in the engine compartment fuse box is for the hazard lights and MICU.

You mean Fuse #23? Is a 10 amp fuse, and there might be 25 other ten amp fuses.
Fuse position ID number is far more descriptive than calling it "10".

All the items mentioned here
Those items all receive 'back up' power directly from fuse #23, there are no other fuses in the dash fuse box for this circuit.


Is anything plugged into the OBD2 connector?
Does the car have aftermarket remote start or car alarm?
Any extra radio or AV gadgets?
Was this car purchased used, could it be equipped with GPS locator or other used car lot revenue recovery devices?


If you stick your key in the drivers door lock and twist it, do all the other doors lock and unlock as designed?
(a stuck position switch could prevent the B-CAN system from going to sleep)


Also, upon reviewing some posts in this thread I now see the image of the meter looks like 250mA is the most it can measure. Damn. You can't discern if there is a whopping 5A drain or only 300mA.

giorgos236

Sorry, I meant external fuse #23 which is 10amp. The car was recently purchased and the only aftermarket items I can see are new fog lights and an air filter. I checked the door locks and they work properly.

I have an OBD2 (not connected), could this help me narrow down the problem? Anything else I can try before taking out the dash to see if there are any aftermarket items there? Something in the trunk or the doors?
Thanks.

ezone

No, I meant something like a data reading device (i.e. scangauge) or a car insurance dongle that stays plugged into the OBD2 connector.

I HAVE seen a used car lot GPS system that uses a jumper harness in the OBD connector to tap power and ground....and if you don't get up under the dash to see the wiring you'd never know it was there.

Similar to this one

Just get a flashlight and look up under the drivers side of the dash for non-factory wiring (black tape, fuse holders, black boxes, and zip ties are clues). Nobody is gonna take a dashboard all the way out to install anything, so you should not need to remove a dash to find it.
The circuit in question only goes to the items previously listed.





If nothing is seen.....I might yank the radio out and unplug it first, see if that kills off the excess drain.

giorgos236

As you said fuse #23 is connected to the following:
Audio unit, Data link connector, Gauge control module (tach and speedo), Immobilizer control unit

Nothing connected to the OBD, nothing that looks out of place in all the wiring under the steering.
Can I disconnect the audio without removing the dash? All its wiring goes somewhere close to the fuse box, right?
The draw could also be coming from the immobilizer, any ideas how I can test for that?
I would assume the gauge control module is not an issue, right?
Thanks.

ezone

That's immobilizer-keyless. Immobilizer portion of the unit isn't used until you try to start the car, but keyless receiver is alive at all times.

I'd just pull the radio to disconnect it, then rerun the tests to see if draw decreases to an acceptable value.
Remove steering column covers and disconnect it, then rerun the tests to see if draw decreases to an acceptable value.
Proof would be disconnecting them, then rerun the tests to see if draw decreases to an acceptable value.

giorgos236

After disconnecting components I think the draw is coming from the tachometer. Is there a way of fixing it or do I need to get another one? Would that reset my mileage and create a problem when I sell the car?
Thanks.