akaali8461

Hey guys -

Really need some direction here. About 3 months ago, my car started hesitating to start so i took it into my local Honda dealership and they said it was the battery and changed it.. battery was 2 years old at this point. Worked fine for a couple weeks then started hesitating to start. I would had to try to start it 2-3 times before it finally turned over. Keep in mind, this was only happening in the mornings.. no other time of day... even if my car sat at work for 8-9 hours, cranked fine in the evening. Took it back into Honda thinking it was a faulty battery. They said the battery was testing fine and at it's peak voltage but it would be hard to detect the issue without seeing the issue happen again. So i said i would video it and email to him. Worked fine the next morning and the week or so after that so i never addressed it again. After a couple weeks, it started to hesitate again, took it back to Honda. They said it was the A/C Compressor Relay switch drawing the battery and also my starter needed to be changed. My boyfriend changed the relay switch but said he felt the starter was fine as it was turning over. It started perfect for a couple weeks. My car sat in the garage for 4 days during the holidays last week and tried to start it Saturday... nothing. hesitated and clicking noise. We put on the battery tender and left in my boyfriend's car for our errands that day. Came home, started fine. Next day. Didn't start again, clicking noise. Had a friend come jump it.. started great. Drove it all day to various places. No problems. Put it on the battery tender for a few hours before work Monday morning. Tried to start.. nothing, clicking. Had to call a friend for a ride to work. Tired to jump start it last night to drop it off at Honda. Wouldn't start at all. Kept it on the battery tender overnight. Still wouldn't start this morning... just clicking noise. So now we may have to get it towed into Honda unless we can find the problem ourselves and fix it. I know Honda will yet again give us the run around and charge us $100 for the diagnostics fee each time but it doesn't seem to fix the issue. Any help would be fully appreciated! oh.. it's a 2006 Civic EX

RIPSAW

Go to harbour Freight and get you a AC/DC meter for under $25 or so. http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-d...ter-37772.html Make sure it has DC amps draw,DC voltage, resistance and AC voltage. Key off and all lights out including the overhead if it has a timer. No underhood light on. Remove the negative cable off the battery. Set meter on DC amps. Hook the meter lead to cable and the other to battery. How many milliamps (mA) is it drawing? Also when you come out in the morning, you will have a DC meter to check battery voltage. The following is for a motorcycle battery I post for help on my Harley forum help I post on, but pretty much applies for a car.

After a good 24+ hour maintenance low amperage charge, with the charge light in the solid green and the battery has set about 24 hours off charge, voltage should be about 12.8 volts.
12.8 = full charged
12.6 = 75%
12.3 = 50% (Lot of new modern cars with system protection will not even click at this point but will have good headlight beams showing)
12.0 =25%

Always check both the terminals at the battery lead and also at the terminal on the wire. That helps to verify connection.
With a DC volt meter (one that has a feature to lock high and low reading is best) hooked across the battery terminals and reading 12.8 or so, crank motor and while its cranking it should not drop below about 9.6 volts and as soon as it starts and throttled up to 2000 rpm, voltage should read around 14.8 volts. The 2000 rpm is the bench mark standard. Ignore idle output. Ignore output above 2000 rpm unless it exceeds 14.9 volts. That is a sure indication that regulator is bad. The 14.8 shows a good alternator and if you leave it on a while as the regulatory will drop the voltage a little showing itself working. However, with the lights and stuff always on, it will never drop back much.
When a battery wears out, a good charge will show fairly good voltage, but the battery can still have very low amperage capacity which will show in the crude crank test above, but it really should be checked after a good charge by removing it from bike and getting a free check at a place like AutoZone that has a fancy load meter check that gives you a print out of the battery health. Battery MUST BE CHARGED to check it. Be sure they set their meter to correct cold cranking amperage stated on the battery. Also, by taking battery out you now know you have good connections. Vibration tends to loosen the connections or a little corrosion will prevent charging or cause starting problems. Using the maintenance charger can get more years from a battery but be careful here. You do not want the last start 5 miles from home. If it still grunts when you first hit starter, replace it. After a few years, charge and pull battery and have it checked for cold cranking amperage ever spring. Even then, if it grunts most ever start, I would replace it. It is also a good idea to always check your battery at 2000 RPM with your meter set to AC. If by chance, the regulator goes bad, sometimes it will let AC come thru. That is a sure sign of a bad regulator.

mrmrsmiley

Hey Guys,

Hope it's ok that I add to this post, pretty much first timer posting so didn't know how to start a new thread.
I own a Honda Civic 2009 2 door coupe EX

Starting issues here as well. Only in the winter. Quebec Canada here was about -15C this morning.

New battery and charging systems tests check out ok, by the dealer.

Some mornings (mornings only) turning the key will get more than a click, get a Rrrr, motor trying to turn over but won't quite spin.

Break out the Genius battery charger which will show approx. 50%
Charge for a bout a half an hour to full charge and it'll start right up.

Tests were performed at the dealer and he thinks that I have something that gets stuck on and slowly drains the battery at night.

Any ideas or suggestions, I've bought a genius jump starter until I can figure out what's up.

Thanks folks, any assistance is greatly appreciated.

RIPSAW

Not sure what a Genius battery charger which will show approx. 50% means but if a volt meter shows 12.3 volts, it going to take more then then a Genius to charge it in a half an hour. More like someone who can walk on water...Leave the charger on it 24 hours. Then do what I posted in two.

ezone

thinks???

mrmrsmiley

Thanks Ripsaw,
I will follow the instructions before January 5th, let you know the results.
Started up fine this morning, but I don't trust it and want to get to the bottom of the issue.

mrmrsmiley

Yah I hear you ezone.
I was lucky to get my car looked at yesterday afternoon and lucky to get it back.
I will follow ripsaw's instructions and hopefully get to the bottom of the issue.
In the meantime I bought a portable booster to make sure I don't get stuck.

ezone

Start engine.
Turn off all HVAC controls.
See if the AC compressor is still running when it should not.

mrmrsmiley

Hey Ezone,

Was this directed to me. If so, not sure how to verify if the compressor is running or not. Will I know just by looking at it?

Measured the battery voltage right before starting it this morning reading of 12.58 DC, was curious, no issues starting 2 days in a row, but I've been here before where it will behave and then one day it will give me issues starting.

Going to put the tender on for the 24 hours and then follow instructions.

ezone

Yes it was directed at you.

Do you know where the AC compressor is?

EDIT: stand by

ezone

OK here's 2 different exploded views of random compressors from google.

The outermost part (clutch hub or clutch plate) will be stationary whenever the compressor is not engaged (running).

If the compressor is running, that hub or plate will be spinning.




If you have the heater/air conditioner turned OFF and that hub is spinning, that's a problem.
It's a well known problem, and it can be hair-pullingly intermittent.

mrmrsmiley

I have access to an indoor garage tomorrow. Very windy and cold outside here today.
I will check this out.
Thanks very much for all of the assistance, I really appreciate it.
I will definitely post results tomorrow.

Just FYI, I attached my battery tender this morning after measuring the battery voltage.
The battery tender started at 50% and was 100% after about half an hour, leaving it on until tomorrow morning.

Thanks again

ezone

From other posts

the belt is always spinning the pulley, yes.

You have to watch the compressor clutch hub to see if it is spinning. THAT'S what you look for.





I know this is a video of a Ford, but this makes it easy to tell, having 3 big pucks and all..... The Honda clutch hub isn't quite so obvious. Spinning is engaged....






When the relay sticks on, it keeps power applied to the clutch and it spins the entire time the engine is running until something causes the relay to unstick. If it's stuck on when you shut the car off, it can drain the battery overnight.




.

ezone

You can check the brand name on the clutch relay too
OMRON is the old problematic brand and MITSUBA is the improved brand relay
Clutch relay is in position #5.

mrmrsmiley

Hey Ezone,

Went out the and removed the battery tender, measured 13 Volts DC and change. Started OK.

Checked to make sure the clutch wasn't spinning with the HVAC off and then turned it on just to make sure that I knew what I was looking at. Goes on and off appropriately.

Off to my indoor garage for more tests, going to be checking for a parasitic drain.

I have the test reports from the dealership for battery and alternator, they both look good.

Wish me luck and thanks for all the assistance, I'm having a good time, fortunately I have time off so it's an enjoyable experience.


Edit:
By the time I arrived at the garage I'm using, the battery voltage was 12.5 Volts DC.
Starting and holding at 2000 RPM the voltage is 14.5 volts DC.
Starting the engine saw the voltage drop down to 11 volts on the meter.
Current draw with everything turned off is zero, turning on/off draws and drops current appropriately.
Not sure what to think at this point.
Figure that I'll change the relay that you mentioned was problematic, might not have been sticking when I verified, but could do it at other times.

ezone

So far it sounds normal. If there's a draw, it's apparently not happening at this moment.

You can't predict when a relay will stick.


That's why I described it as

Updated relay, Honda part # 39794-SDA-A05

mrmrsmiley

Thanks Ezone,

Dealer is closed today, so I temporarily pulled the relay.
Can't stick if it isn't there
There's a few of the same model relay, wondering if it's a problematic relay brand, perhaps just change them all?
What do you think?

RIPSAW

mrmrsmiley, just thinking out loud but with a 2009, your battery is 5 years old. if it dies again, after your tests, I would replace it. it's more likely that then a car problem.

ezone

Lazy worthless bums! I had to work today!

Right-o!
I know that same relay is used all over the car (the entire car line, actually) without hardly any issues, but when it's used on the AC clutch it has problems. IDK if it's something about the contact points being undersized for the load or undersized spring can't pull the points apart, but it doesn't like it.

The updated relay (MITSUBA brand) is more expensive than an original brand (OMRON) replacement.

Yeah this.. OTOH one of your other posts kinda made me think it wasn't a battery problem....?


If the battery is original, it's automatically suspect and I don't give a damn if it passes on either one of the dealers official Midtronics testers that gives a beautiful printout. .

Those testers are only about 80% accurate (that's as good as 100%, right?)
I've diagnosed MANY crap batteries that those testers would give a pass on all day long.
I've also had the fancy battery charger/tester "fail" perfectly good batteries that just needed a long slow charge.

mrmrsmiley

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the help, I really really appreciate it.
I replaced the battery fall of 2013, it's a motomaster eliminator with a 4 year warranty, but even if I would have difficulties collecting on the warranty I wouldn't even blink to pay to replace if it's the culprit.
First day back to work will be Monday and I have to drive to a customer's 2 hours away. Glad I bought the booster pack cause these guys are out in the boonies.
Any sign of an issue and I will replace the battery, could just be a dud.
I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again
Happy 2015 guys

mrmrsmiley

Hey Hey Guys,

Well she didn't start again this morning.
-11C or 12F, so cold, but not as low as we can get. Last winter we had a few days that were -25 C or -12F and she didn't like it, but she started.

This morning just for the hell of it before trying to start it, I measured 12.53 Volts DC. because being cold I wondered if there would be an issue starting it.

Not enough amperage to turn the engine over quickly, turned painful slow and stopped.
Used my Genius battery boost and it started right up. Took it for a run on the highway for a bit and when I got back I checked the voltage 13.47 Volts DC with the engine turned off.

Funny the other day after charging it for 20 something hours it was only 13 Volts DC in the morning and after a few pit stops running errands it had dropped to 12.5 volts by lunch time, but would still start easily. Mind you it was a lot milder temperature wise.

I still think that there's something draining it slowly overnight. What do you guys think?

My wife and daughter used it last night and said there wasn't any issue, noticed that they left the fan speed on, where I've ben turning it to off lately.
Any chance that relay is sticking?
Let me know what you think when you have a few minutes.
Thanks
Smiley

ezone

Got a battery hydrometer? Do a cell check, measure the specific gravity of the acid in each cell.

mrmrsmiley

Nope, but I see they're only 7 bucks at the local auto center.
Dang and it's starting to get stormy out Zoinks

Edit:

Good news, place where I bought the battery will do a hydrometer test for free. So if the results are bad, new battery in hand.
But it will be tomorrow, wind will take the skin off your hands today, supposed to warm up tremendously tomorrow.



Wanted to attach a pic to show you the weather, but can't seem to figure that out yet

ezone

See if the battery has removable vent caps first. See if the tester hose could reach liquid in there to test.


Or wait til it's 3* F and remove the caps, see if any cells are frozen?
My GFs granddaughter (3 y.o.) has DVDs of the early Scooby Doo episodes where they meet stars like Sonny and Cher, The Harlem Globetrotters, Jerry Reed, and all that.....I'm like "I watched all those when they were NEW!"





EDIT: I know what cold looks like. I don't want to see -40* either, but thanks.

Load your pics to a hosting site like tinypic or imigur, paste the links here. Use this icon

ezone

Run the battery down first. Test it after it fails to start the car, don't test right after having the charger on it all day.

mrmrsmiley

Run it down, leave the headlights on over night hehehe

Watched Scoobie Doo as a kid in the sixties, amazing the things that stick with you

Posted pics of my bike in my albums, check it out. Nicked MF Jones from the movie Horrible Bosses

ezone

Nah, then ALL the cells would test low. You want to see if there is one individual cell that is significantly weaker than the rest immediately after it didn't start the car, I figure it would surely show a dead cell at that time. Or test it at any time, see if there's a dead cell....I've just had a few cases that were hard to catch.


Yep. Youtube is a great thing too LOL

Nice!

Also noticed:
MySpace URL
Too old for this

LOL'd.

mrmrsmiley

Hey Guys,


Thought I would share an update.
Been away and had a string of days where it's been -23C (-10F) plus wind on top.
Haven't removed the battery to get the hydrometer test done yet due to weather conditions.
But every time that I turn the car off, I make sure to turn off the fan and radio, even have the dome light set to off.
Started morning and night every day up until Thursday morning (Wednesday night was a 2 hour highway ride home) and wouldn't start even with my battery boost. Turning the engine over very very slow.
Left it charging the battery for 24 hours and she started right up.


I will still get the hydrometer test done, but it's very strange so many really cold days in a row and she was starting like a champ then stops.

mrmrsmiley

Weather is nice today just below freezing and no wind so I pulled my battery and went to get it tested at the counter where I bought it.
Guy says it's under warranty, here's a new one, didn't want to test it.
So I have a new battery and 4 more years of guarantee.
Keep you posted if this solves my problems


Thank you for all of the assistance, it is greatly appreciated.

ezone

That was a little too easy LOL.

Would have been nice to know if it was actually bad. Now it's still a guessing game.