RIPSAW

2007 Civic Coupe 94K. Lower engine torque rod engine mount and rear upper control arm.

Dealer said needs lower motor mount and rear upper control arms (inner tire wear)

When I turn wheels fwd and reverse with car jacked, can see the torque rod back in the cavity of the vertical rear single bolt move about 1/16". Putting the breaker bar in the transmission drain plug and pulling and pushing get some motion. Just how loose can the bushing be?

For the rear upper control arms, I was not sure if maybe tire wear was from front and tires just moved to rear. Anyway dealer said need upper arms and alignment. I checked alignment. 1/32" toe in and negative 2 1/2 degrees inward at top, of camber and both side real close. Not sure what it should be. Appears only toe is adjustable. I tried to unload arm to check bushing. Could see no play but was not sure, so I removed bolt at knuckle and raised arm and it is snug with no shake. The little sketch is the adjustment setting and amount of setting. Appears to be factory since the paint marks seem to match.?

What should alignment be?
How loose can bushing be?
Can I just get Honda bushing? Dealer said he though they were bent, but both sides? The arms are $90 but I have a floor press if bushings are available? Which way does the adjustment go to get just a little more toe? Is there a camber adjustment?

ROD, TORQUE (LOWER) 39.16 retail 50
Part Number: 50890-SNA-A82

ARM, R. RR. (UPPER)
Part Number: 52390-SNA-A00 90.94 retail 116

ARM, L. RR. (UPPER)
Part Number: 52400-SNA-A00



Thanks for the help.

RIPSAW

Few more pictures

ezone

There is always movement, there are rubber bushings.

Did you have a complaint that led to this diagnosis (upsell)?

Bla bla bla.....
You got a problem with rear tires getting choppy and loud?

RIPSAW

Thanks ezone

Engine:
(No, when they drove it back to inspect, they called it out because of the coarse rough fill in the drivetrain. Setting still, you can fill it like a intense buzz yet engine idles pretty good looking at it. It goes away above 30 mph or so, I dismissed it till I really starting checking and actually think there is actual loose play in the bushing. It's just back in there and hard to see if it's the rubber moving (squashing) or actually loose. Guess I will just have to unbolt it and pull it out to see.
.................................................. .....
On the rear:
Actually, there is a good 1/8 " left on tires before wear indicators in the tire grooves except for last one and the steel belts came thru on the inner edge. My CRV call out is 1 degree camber and 1/32 to 1/16 toe in. I do not have a Civic manual and did not know what alignment should be. The -2 1/2 negative camber seems a lot in a way but still would not have done what the tires did. Grandson does drive a little aggressive. There is actually a TSB-08-100 on this. My tires on car are wrong however but I am replacing all 4 Friday with Bridgestones. However, think I can get them to replace upper arm and align free?

ezone

Mount: See this post by Gunner, see the 2 pics showing bad/good.
This is the ONLY mount I have ever replaced on any 8th gen Civic.

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/197-mechanical-problems-vehicle-issues-fix-forum/342963-2008-honda-civic-vibrates-parking-reverse-gear.html#post4577741


Arms and align: If you don't get choppy tires, fixing it is up to you. That much neg camber is too much IMO, but some can get away with it.
New spec is -.75* +/- .75* (-45' +/- 45') per that bulletin.

See this post I made, shows the updated arms and describes how I modified a few sets of arms prior to the release of the service bulletin:

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4648427

Read the whole thread, there's probably more info than you want to know.

RIPSAW

Thanks ezone, your the man. Going back to the dealer Friday after putting tires on it and get the rejection taken off. Going to try to talk them into changing the arms. If that fells, I have found a set of take off on an 2009 Civic with 5K on them. They do not have the C but unless the the 2006 and 2007 Civic bodies are what was wrong, the 2009 part ought to fix it. If not, I was going to do exactly what you did. Trig is out to see if I can take off enough on one. Grind the back side and file the the front square a cut a key to fit in the front to take all the play out from making hole oblong. Even if I got it to 1 degree, that should be fine and Cosco want to rotate tires free ever 5K. Got a lower torque arm coming. Guess I need to take a hard look at the top ones. They had the squirm but no free motion. Need to get the flashlight and look for that contact. I did not replace filter on transmission since it's in back behind air box. Even then, appears that it will be a pain. If I need to replace right mount, then would be the time. Checked the upper engine mount on the passenger side. The stop is sitting on the rubber bump with no gap. I have a 1/2" thick rubber sheet interlaced with nylon reinforcement. Think I could get away with just cutting me a piece 1 1/2 x 3 out of it and jack motor up and slide it in?

ezone

.....

ezone

Rejection? What's that? Safety inspection or something?

Are they trying to fail the car over cracked rubber bushings? Or just the tires?




The freebie campaign ended long ago.
They are all customer pay jobs now.

I would not trust aftermarket arms to last anywhere near as long as factory parts (as long as the factory parts have the outer bushings neutralized upon installation).

FYI: If you look up the rear upper arms in any Honda parts catalog, you will get the original style arms.

The only way to get new updated parts (stamped with that "C") is to use the part number in the bulletin (04523-SNA-A01). There will be a pair of updated arms in the box along with 6 new bolts.


Toe is the same for most Hondas. Your CRV uses the same toe specs as your Civic (according to our Hunter machine). 0 front, and +2mm rear (our Hunter machine says +0.16*)

You sure about that C?
Body has nothing to do with the problem.

The only thing different is the C stamped arms, they are something like 2-3mm longer than the original parts.


And the problem of chopping tires can still happen because the arms only reduce the tendency, there is no way to eliminate it entirely.
(If you read the linked thread, you probably already read this.)



I did not make spacers or anything. I elongated the holes then simply let the weight of the suspension pull the arm outward and tightened the 2 vertical bolts.....(then of course neutralize the bushing at the outer end of the arm on the knuckle)
The last time I saw the first car I did it to, they had not moved and that was well over 100k ago.
Pretty sure that I wrote somewhere that even with the updated arms, one degree negative is asking for a lot. Many still end up with more lean than that.


Motor mounts all have rubber, there will always be a lot of play when you brake torque the engine in forward and reverse. It's always expected. I seriously doubt there will be any change if you replace the torque rods (or whatever anyone wants to call them)


Yes it is. LOL

That's the left mount. Drivers side is always the left side (of our cars in North America) no matter where you are standing.

I have never seen one of those mounts bad.
That's bad. That's your horrible vibration. That mount is the only mount I have ever replaced on these cars.

Once you get the upper torque rod off that mount, you can jack up the engine and the big round mount will separate, the top bolt will have a little cone shaped lump of rubber attached to it when it comes up. Or you can unbolt that topmost bolt and see if the nut comes right out of the mount.




No, that's no cushion.


And I sure hope you are gonna get factory mounts.

RIPSAW

Turned down in VA state yearly inspection do to tires (inside edge of tire was to steel belt ) Outside looked great and it was dark when grandson brought car over.. So you do not think the 2009 would have come with the longer arms? Then think I will just elongate. I meant left side for transmission filter under air filter box. Ordered hydraulic motor mount. Costly! All I use is OEM. When you say then of course neutralize the bushing at the outer end of the arm on the knuckle, do you ment with the wheel on and the car on the ground? Thanks for all the advice.

ezone

I thought you said there was no C stamp on them? (I was stuck on that, I didn't pay attention to the year of the car. Sorry!)

Review my pics in the linked thread. The arms should be marked with paint OR stamp OR both.
Each arm is only marked on one side so it may be hard to tell.

09 is supposed to have the newer version of the arms, and AFAIK SHOULD have the C mark in one form or another.

I know, but they work right!
It comes with the upper aluminum bracket attached.
If you take the bolt out to ease assembly, I'd smear some anti-seize on the threads. I use a lot of that for MANY of the bolts that go into aluminum. Galling threads upon disassembly can become a huge problem.

If you take that bolt out.....don't let the rubber twist. Vice on the aluminum, not the mount.

RIPSAW

When you say neutralize the bushing at the outer end of the arm on the knuckle for the upper control rod, do you ment with the wheel on and the car on the ground? The upper control arms I found came off a 2009 Civic SI. Will that fit my 2007 EX Coupe?

ezone

Yes, suspension weighted and at ride height.


Check this post http://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-20.../#post36669793

Are they what you need? Look for the "C" stamping.

I can say "Maybe".

RIPSAW

There does not appear to be a 'C' but there is the etched date on them that has 2009 date stamp. (mine on my car has a 2007 stamp, so I know they have not been changed. I know when you do a part fit, the SI comes up with a different number. Are we sure that the hydraulic right side motor mount is bad if that large stop is down on the pad? I got to wondering where my CRV one was at and it's on the stop with no clearance. I looked at my neighbors two Accords and they are the same. Looked in my Honda service manual and there is really no info on checking it. I put a stethoscope on it and it's quite. However, there is considerable noise down at that lower right side torque stop mount that is on the bottom of the motor. Got both of them coming. Car has new tires, transmission actually shifts better, new state inspection and grandson cain't be happier. Gpaw is too. Honda Antifreeze, sparkplugs and the rear alignment fix to go. Made no headway with the TSB. They did recall 05 CRV in VA and the airbag inflator is on order now.

ezone

Parts has an info bulletin saying to inspect the old arm for the C marking (or not) in order to choose an identical replacement.


If you want the updated arms, you need to find a set with the "C" stamp on them.





You saw the pics in that thread, yes?

No complaints, no worries. Seriously. I've seen the same things you noticed though, but if there is no complaint I'm not chasing it.
The collapsed mount doesn't really make noise, I really don't think you'd hear anything there.
It transmits engine vibration into the rest of the car.

When the mount is bad, seems like it makes the car loud enough to sound like it has a fart can exhaust when you are sitting inside.
Is yours this loud?


I forget when they make the most noise....In reverse or drive---one way they get real loud and the other way it gets almost totally normal quiet (depends on which way the mount is loaded?)


How I'd diagnose:
Run the engine, have someone sitting inside the car. Set it up so its making the vibration really good, (usually have the auto trans in some gear or whatever so it's really loud inside)

Use a floor jack (with a block of wood, under the oil pan) to lift the engine up a bit so it takes engine weight off the bad mount---- and the car gets quiet. Someone sitting inside should notice a huge difference when the weight comes off the bad mount.

After figuring this out a couple times I don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to diagnose it anymore, I remember how it sounds sitting inside and know loading and unloading makes it come and go. If it's a manual trans car I can still figure it out in 10 seconds.

The 2 torque rods are there to limit the amount of twist when you torque up the engine. It will always move some.

HTH

RIPSAW

Got my upper arms...dated 09-22-08 off a 2009 4 dr civic si.. They are like new and have the C stamp in the metal. Got lucky on them. Got a reference dimensions off them good enough to see the difference on my 2007 ones when I take them off.

Got my mounts.
See what you mean about the lower torque rod. The movement I am seeing is probably normal. Just pushing the new one with my thumb moves it. Probably just replace the upper engine hydraulic mount and see if it helps.

ezone

Hey cool. Post up whatever your difference measures, I'd like to know just how different they really are.

RIPSAW

What's the torque on the two bolts that hold the rear upper control arm to the frame and the one bolt that attaches it to the knuckle? Thanks

ezone

Blapblapblapblap with an impact gun?



43 and 79 ft-lb according to the bulletin

RIPSAW

Reason I ask about torque was I had gotten 84/47 from my CRV manual and the 84 was the two frame bolts. Looked way out of line. The 43 above is for the two bolt in the frame? Is there a radiator bleed on a 2007 Civic? Looked real good but did not see one.

Got the engine mounts in. Made a heck of a difference. Vibration is gone. New one sits with the stop 3/8" off the stop. The bottom was torn like I originally thought. Think the torque mount replacement I got may have been a clone. Got the upper from Keenan Honda. The lower from this guy below and was stated to be OEM but it had Honda on it. It came in a sealed pink Honda bag with a Honda tag Made in Japan. I owe you for all the help ezon!!!!

ezone

Yes the vertical bolts
No bleeder screws
That torn mount is from the bottom? It wasn't the cause of the heavy vibration, but man, I guess I'll have to start looking for that. Even doing all those block replacements, I hadn't ever noticed any like that. Thanks for the pic.

YW

RIPSAW

That torn one was the bottom one down on the oilpan. Like I originally had said, when I was checking the axles, I had the front tires up in the air and was turn them trying to get a fill how loose the axles where. Just turning the tires fwd and then reverse by had caused the engine at the oil pan to shift about 3/8-1/2". Now with the new arm, the motor just quivers. Just sitting there idling, did not notice anything. Would have surely noticed it shifting from reverse to fwd. The top torque arm above the hydraulic mount looked like new. I think some of the noise was being caused by the torque rod since when running, the engine was tilted out of position by about 3/8". You think that little heavy cast iron washer damper that is under the left outboard nut of the hydraulic motor mount does anything. Sometimes Honda overthinks but you have to admire there engineering. Even the ABS lines have certain U bend to allow for sockets. If you hold your mouth right, the upper mount wiggles right up out of there without taking the top aluminum part off. I still have a odd bearing noise up front. May be just tire /road noise for this car. Since I do not drive this car, I think I may have a bad wheel bearing. The back one were perfect. It there a way to really tell a bad one on the front with the drive axles on them? All is tight and fills OK by had. My 1994 Civic sounded a little like this but it sounded like it from new till I gave it to a grandchild with 135K on it.

ezone

Jack both wheels off the ground.

First I let the engine idle and let the wheels spin free, 5 MPH or so. Get directly in front of each tire and watch the tread as they spin. Choppy edges should be easily noticed if present.


Now have someone sit in the car and run it up to 50 or whatever speed it's loudest. (If the trans doesn't shift to 4th on its own, get it up to 30 then pop the shifter into neutral then right back into drive. That should get it to shift to high gear.)

Stethoscope on the knuckles.
Or listen at the coil springs if you dare.

Have the occupant slow down to half that speed, then use something stout to slow and stop one wheel. The other one now spins faster, does the bearing noise over there now get louder?
Repeat for the opposite side.

RIPSAW

Looks like it will be about 3 months before getting to the upper control arm lengths. Grandson off to college. Does anyone know if dealer can make a plain ignition and door key with no alarm button pad on it for a 2007 Civic with just the VIN. Sorry dealer sold this car (I purchased but was out of town when grandson picked it out) with one key, no front plate mount, no key for the Honda wheel locks and no owners manual.

ezone

Yes, they SHOULD be able to cut keys by VIN (as long as all the locks are original).

Yes you can get plain head gray key (valet) but it will need programmed before it will start the engine.

They MIGHT have the plain bare metal blanks with no immobilizer chip you could have cut to keep in a wallet. Would get you inside the car but not start it. Should be dirt cheap.

Daaaang. They should owe you some of these things (good luck getting anything though). At least get them to remove the locking lugnuts and stick on regular ones.
If they won't, you'll have to pound a socket over the locks and remove by hand.
Lugnuts are ball seat, not taper seat.
We have about 500 LBS of new lugnuts laying around because at our dealer all new cars with aluminum wheels get lock lugs. Maybe they will too. Ask in the shop first, not the parts department LOL.

-----

License bracket, you need to run a front plate? Front license bracket is pretty freekin important!
Bug the sales manager, then bug the general manager...... that's how some of our customers get action when salespeople can't be bothered.
Order at parts, make sure they order whatever hardware that you'll need to install the bracket.
Coupe and sedan use different front plate brackets and hardware.
Online dealer?

Or, you know, just screw that plate right to the bumper cover.
4" deck screws ought to git-r-dun!

------

You're in the USA, right?
Owners manual, go to
http://automobiles.honda.com/information/owner-resources.aspx
and register as the new owner of that car, check for open recalls, warranty extensions, and all that. See if you can get an owners manual there.

Also check http://owners.honda.com/vehicles/warranty

If no, try google for 'honda owners manual PDF' or some such.



HTH

RIPSAW

I did not do my homework and waited way too long. I got the wheel lock key but my contact (he has sold me 4 Hondas) did get me the plate mount. Crag on here took care of us for all the manuals. Car has factory alarm, Not sure I understand key. The valet will open driver door and start car just in case grandson loses his only key. Plan on putting it behind tag. So there is some kind of chip even in that key? I was thinking even with the alarm set, you could jump in and insert key and turn it on would disable alarm. Know my 05 CRV has a all metal silver one (I put behind plate) . Guess since the CRV does not have a trunk, they are different. Keys are similar looking with alarm POM on key. This HDS they refer to in the service manual for key registration to the immobilizer. Guess that some kind of Honda tool? Know on my Harley, you can marry them manual. So not only do I need to get parts to make me a key, I also need to get the garage to marry them. I'm in the Hampton Roads Virginia area. Yes, you can download a PDF owner's manual at the Honda site. I will need another Honda shortly for the wife. CRV going to a granddaughter. I was looking at a Fit. However, the Civic really drove great. Years ago, there were real horror stories on that variable pulley chain belt auto transmission. Will it go 150K now if driven easy

ezone

If you want it to start the engine, then yes.

Read up on the Immobilizer system.
A key must have the "immobilizer chip" AND be programmed to the car in order to run the engine.

The valet key will do this but have no fob (keyless remote) functions.

Plain steel key (that I have seen) has no immobilizer chip, therefore cannot run the engine.


(The 'chip' itself works on similar principle to RFID, i.e. no batteries.)
If the alarm were set, it will be disarmed when the key is twisted in the door.

But....Will it start the car?
Honda Diagnostic System. It's our dealer level scanner program.
No provisions for a user to DIY this on these cars.
I understand there are a few aftermarket scanners that have the capability to do keys too. None will be cheap.

Check your local locksmiths too, some may have the tooling to do key and programming work. (None in my town though.)



This new version of the CVT first hit our market in the 13 Accord 4 cylinder. Slightly smaller versions are now in the Civic and Fit.
I think we've got a couple of the Accords with over 100k on them, but I haven't seen others that high yet.....and also I have not witnessed any serious failures in this generation CVT trans yet myself.

RIPSAW

When I got the 07 Civic, We drove a new Fit and Civic (year end 2014 ). I thought the Fit had a regular gear shift automatic. Felt like it. First CVT in the Civic I had drove. It felt like a electric motor driving it..smooth. I see now that both are CVT for the 2015. Hard to keep up for me now. So I guess it's what ever the wife thinks looks good on her. Guess I go to parts to get the valet key? Got a ballpark $ figure for service to program? Going to check on the CRV on that key. It came new with it and the two keys with alarm buttons. May be I am confused on what I put behind plate on 04 Toyota truck that has no alarm. Sure shows a valet key in CRV owners manual and says it has a glove box lock. Thanks Ezone

ezone

I like this version of the CVT trans much better than the previous version.
While both versions use the dual pulley and belt system (a la snowmobile), this new version employs a fluid filled torque converter like a regular automatic trans whereas the previous version used a "start clutch" to couple the engine to the trans.
In our shop you can start at either department. You need to have the car with you though.
No. Each dealer is free to set their own prices.
You could look up the key blanks in an online parts catalog so you know the MSRP. Then add $ to cut it and more $$ to program it.

Call around and ask. I know our price to program keys is lower than the other 3 closest dealers.

If it came with the car new then it shouldn't be a plain metal key. It should be a valet.

HTH

RIPSAW

$91 for a valet key..$140 for the alarm key at my local dealer and like you say with car at service. CRV key was the gray valet key. Low and behold, there is a key hole in the plastic glove box lid. I had key wired with a now rusty sandwich bag tie to a drilled hole behind plate. I changed the tie to a piece of SS wire fish leader. Shame on you if you lose your key on one of these new cars. Guess you would have to have it towed to a dealer. First time I have ever locked a key in the car was 45 years ago and the wife was in hospital after having my son and I stopped and got him a baseball, glove and bat. Old Boy Scout motto..Be prepared..Never been stuck long since then.

RIPSAW

Well to follow up. We will just need to go with Ezone's "The only thing different is the C stamped arms, they are something like 2-3mm longer than the original parts." he's always right about everything...anyway ? Ha. I was out of the country 3 months and the grandson put 5K of miles on the tires I put on. Backs were worn even across that I could not tell any difference after pulling them to replace arms, I just put them back on. The front are worn slightly more on the out side but that's just from his driving style (no worst then my 66 year old wife (RIP) Cosco is going to rotate and balance them ever 5K free and all it cost me is couple hours and a few dollars for a hotdog with SC and all the drink you want... I just through arms on the shelf for someday. If I drove car, it probably would need them. Looks like Honda almost designed it that way for people who drive aggressive. Some eye-candy? HA.. RIP on vacation...66 going on 39 and at 29 WOW!!!!!