pjw73nh

2007 Civic 110k miles. Adult driven, very good condition, well maintained.

Under very light load / acceleration on flat or slightly inclined road, when it goes to shift from 2-3, around 1800-2000 rpms, just at the very end of gear 2, there is a slight shudder before it shifts to 3. It shifts fine the rest of the way up (and down).

On anything *BUT* light load/accel it shifts fine and there is no noticeable shudder.

It only happens with the gear selector in the "D" position. I can duplicate the issue every time. If it is in any other position, the issues is non existent.

Bought the car with 36k. I have done the ATF change twice so for. (last one at 90k).

Any thoughts comments suggestions welcome.

Thanks.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Was OEM fluid used for these ??

pjw73nh

It was a while ago, so I don't remember. I may be able to look it up. Both times I got it from the local Honda dealer. So I would assume with the VIN etc they would give me the correct fluid.

ezone

We do fluid change first, Hondas flush procedure if the fluid could be wrong or contaminated, and if everything else fails.....replace the torque converter.

pjw73nh

Craig & Ezone, tnx for the replies.

Question: I am not familiar with Honda transmissions, mostly domestic & VW. If it was the torque converter slipping, wouldn't it happen in all gear transitions? Not just 2-3. Also I would expect it be worse under load. No?

If it was happening during torque converter lockup, wouldn't it only happen after the last gear has reached its terminal velocity, and is not longer under any kind of heavy load?

Are the Honda transmissions different? Do they lock up in all gears?

Why does it not happen when the gear selector is NOT in "D" ? IE D3, 2, 1 ?

Not questioning your guys' knowledge or advice, just trying to make sense of it all.

It's 2/3 through fluid life now, so it would hurt to change it. Absent anything else to look at, I'll probably start there.

Thanks.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

You likely got OEM fluid during your services, certainly worth a try to get another D&F or maybe a flush to see if anything changes.

pjw73nh

Just found a small amount of leftover from my last change. DW-1.

RIPSAW

I have found Honda's sensitive to off brand transmission fluid. First one, after 20K on generic transmission fluid that would hang shift and it would go away when changed out. I also had a 1995 EX Coupe that truly had a shudder like you were in too high a gear at certain ranges with the all gear lock up transmission. Never seemed to hurt it and it seemed OK at 130K when I sold it. I pretty much have learned with my Honda's just to pay a few bucks more for their oils. Working on my third one now. It's a 4x4 and the rear differential will chatter unless you use their differential pump fluid.

ezone

Depends%u00AE.

The TCC can be fully locked or partially locked (controlled slippage), as the computer sees fit to do so.
(If they only clicked the converter clutch into a fully locked mode, there would be a whole lot of driveline jolt complaints, so they have partial lockup as a normal operating condition.)

I have seen enough of the cars and trucks do the shudder at different conditions to now be able to readily identify the suspect, they don't all do it under the exact same speeds or conditions. Some do the shudder under extremely light acceleration, opposite of what you are thinking.

I can verify my suspicions by (scantool) graphing the ISS vs. RPM PIDs along with VSS, TPS, and lockup commands.
I have seen Hondas shudder with as little as 1 RPM of TCC slippage and been able to document it in a data "snapshot" of the event.


No, these appply the TCC far more often than the domestics you are probably used to. I know many of GMs bigger cars up until the mid/late 90s the TCC that applied at minimum 48 MPH (light throttle) and it completely locked on like it shifted another gear. No partial lockup at all.

Very. Think of it like a manual trans that is shifted hydraulically, with clutch packs instead of synchronizers. There are no planetary gear sets as in traditional automatic transmissions.

Pretty much. These can apply the TCC in all 5 gears (when shifter is in "D").

Hondas new CVT transmissions can apply their TCC beginning at about 5 MPH or so, and you can feel it and see it on the tach.

In "D3" the TCC can be applied in gears 1,2,3 but I believe the apply RPM/load threshold is raised on some models.
In manual 1st or 2nd the TCC is not applied at all.

I'm kinda surprised you called it as a trans issue, myself. LOL. Many forum users are far more vague, lacking all specifics about their issues.

pjw73nh

First of all, Thanks to all who replied. I really appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Ezone, Thanks for an absolutely fantastic explanation of the transmission and how it works. The detail was perfect for me to grasp a firm understanding of just how different the Honda transmissions are from the ones I am used to working on. Thanks.

Lastly and gratefully, It appears as though the drain and fill solved the issue. At least so far. The shudder is gone. The fluid I took out was an opaque dark gray/brown/blackish. It certainly was not the pristine ruby red that went in. It definitely did not smell burnt or of any other odor.

Thanks folks.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

8th gens have a replaceable inline filter on the backside, may want to consider having it replaced if fluid was dark.

ezone

May want to drain and fill a couple more times in the near future too, or at least shorten up the routine service intervals several thousand miles.



Handy pic of the drivetrain backside for trans filter location:

pjw73nh

Thanks for the posts

Is this the filter? See attached.

Is it easily accessible and changed?

Tnx

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

That is it.

R&R calls for removing the airbox to access it.

pjw73nh

Any idea if it's easier to get it from the bottom (laying on my back of course)?

Or is the air box removal pretty straighforward?

Do you know what type of clamps/fittings are on it? I looked last night and I couldn't even see the filter.

Tnx

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

They are the squeeze type clamps.

Not sure about access from below.

From Manual on airbox:

Disconnect MAF sensor & IAT sensor connector (on top cover)

Remove top cover.

Remove element.

Remove 2 bolts at /

Loosen clamp and remove pipe.

Reverse for assembly.