DeX

I'm using an amplifier to power a 12 inch subwoofer, another amplifier to power my 4 stock speakers and I'm also running a 90 watt power supply on a car computer. If the bass gets really intense, my lights fade in and out so I want to fix it. I know a capacitor will stop the fading lights but it only masks the problem, a capacitor doesn't actually fix anything. So my question is between a battery or an alternator, which should I upgrade first? And I'll be upgrading the 3 grounds while I'm at it as well. And lastly, which kind of battery should I get and where?

popee

iTrader: (9)

get a yellow opti battery

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

if you upgrade the alt, should not need a better battery. optima sucks, they barely last a year or two. the $50 autocraft battery i got so far lasted longer and works a ton better.

electric130

iTrader: (44)

get an alternator first.

DeX

So far I read alternator and I understand they're about $300, that right? Can you explain to me why I should get that first? And where I should get one?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

alternator is the weakest part of the system. if you are drawing more power than you are making, thats not good. and it will eventually drain the battery or mess it up. now if you have a good alternator making lots of power, there will be plenty left to keep the battery charged, and it wont matter if you have a "good" battery, whatever that even means.

electric130

iTrader: (44)

couldn't have said it better. listen to this guy! he knows his stuff!!!

DeX

Ya, gearbox is the man. Cool, where is the best place to get an alternator? Generic parts store or somewhere online?

christmaspie

Does anyone know of an aftermarket alternator for our cars that uses an outboard voltage regulator instead of using the factory ELD?

electric130

iTrader: (44)

do you have a schematic of the factory one? maybe we can figure a way to improve on it?

christmaspie

One of these links should work as a wiring diagram.

Anyway, the whole issue the way I see it is things like amplifiers don't draw current thru the ELD. The amp's power connection is straight to the batt so it bypasses the ELD. So, the ECM/PCM doesn't tell the alternator to work any harder to make up for that power out of the battery.

That's why an outboard regulator seems crucial to me.

christmaspie

And this one might explain how the ELD is wired into the vehicle a little better.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

the problem with the alternator working harder is, it will burn out faster. its such a weak pos that if you have an amp telling it to stay on forever, youre gonna need a new one very soon. idk. same happened when i had the aem pulley on it. the voltmeter showed it working non stop to keep up with normal power demands, then a few months later it just burned up.

DeX

- Command, we have reports of a hijack in the area.
- Copy that, have you got a description of the suspects?
- Looks to be a single car enthusiast going by the alias christmaspie. Request for use of deadly force.
- Roger that, stand by for confirmation.

christmaspie

Hijack... right.

Why don't you just go buy that new alternator like everyone suggested and report back? I'd LOVE to hear how it worked out.

Remember, the first electrical upgrade should be an alternator that won't work any harder than your factory one. That's money well spent.

DeX

Are you 5 years old? I made a joke and you threw a tantrum. I thought it was pretty funny.

christmaspie

No, it's not even like that man. It isn't a hijack because I'm trying to help you understand all those who just point out alternator haven't taken a new alt's shortcomings into consideration. If you want my advice start with a cap for the amps, then think about upgrading to a better battery. Of course upgrade vehicle electrical grounds if you haven't already. Those things will lead you to a better result.

As far as my age, it's right there on the left. I'm 3 years younger than you.

Oh and by the way, you're no Jay Leno pal.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

well ya if you go too big on the alt, it will eat hp lol among other things. maybe even overcharge the battery?

TIPPMANN

So after all this, we still have no definite decision.

I run 2 1farad caps and I have replaced my battery. I have no issues with lights dimming or anything.

christmaspie

Yes the alternator will draw power from the engine. That's not the concern I have. In fact I don't know how a high output alt would make more power without it coming off the engine.

My point is if you go the route of upgrading your alternator to (for example) a high output Alterstart, you will not see the benefit w/o some other modifications. The reason goes back to the whole thing with the ELD. So now you have a 150A alternator that will never put out more than 70, maybe 80A at the most.

An aftermarket alternator w/o an outboard voltage regulator and a way of taking "into account" the current going to the amps and carPC will not function any better than the factory alternator. Aftermarket companies use a smaller pulley to try and deal with that but it causes idle issues as well as the ones Gearbox alluded to.

I run a 1F cap and an optima yellow top. I have a system with three amplifiers, GPS, bluetooth, etc. and have no dimming issues.

The only thing I note on the yellow top is they seem to last a lot longer if you throw them on a battery charger for a little bit every month or so. Being a deep cycle the alt (especially on our cars) won't fully charge it.

TIPPMANN

^^^^^Very well said in my opinion.

DeX

But the capacitor doesn't fix anything. The problem is the massive draw on the electrical system and the capacitor simply holds a charge to provide for the electronics. It's still pulling the same draw on the electrical system so nothing is changed.What would you suggest I do to add an air ride suspension to the setup I currently have?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i dont believe in caps either. all it does is stop the visual dimming, you still have the problem of not making enough power to run everything on the car. and a cap will put a drain on the system too, since it always has to recharge itself.

christmaspie

Well, I suppose that depends on how you are defining the word “fix” as well as how you are defining your “problem”. Your exact words from the original post: “the bass gets really intense, my lights fade in and out so I want to fix it.”

Will a capacitor be able to add an extra 20-30A of current output capability to your electrical system? Absolutely it will not.
Can it act as an electrical reservoir to quickly supply large amounts of current and reduce voltage drops (the ultimate cause of all sorts of dimming)? Yes, it can.

If you are defining your problem as headlights dimming with large amounts of bass or increased levels of music, a properly installed capacitor is most likely to reduce or even eliminate the dimming. In my opinion that would also equate to a “fix” of the problem.

Maybe you define the problem as not having an electrical system capable of producing “enough” power. I appreciate that. However, keeping in mind the earlier discussion related to aftermarket alternators, producing “more” power is often much easier said than done.


That is certainly true in one sense. However, things are changed with the addition of the capacitor. Again, the light dimming issue (if it is to do with amplifier voltage drop) is no longer a problem. So something has changed. Now, we make sure to note here that we are not saying the vehicle electrical system produces more power. That is not my argument.


I don’t have any particular experience with them whatsoever. In the sense of what should you do to upgrade your vehicle electrical system in general, my previous advice remains and I will sum it all up at the end of this tirade (sorry about all the tirades by the way).


Well, I’m not sure what it means to not believe in caps but they are a genuine electrical component and I have seen them solve dimming light issues many times in my experience. So you say they stop the visual dimming, I suppose we need to ask ourselves whether that is the problem. Because if that’s how we define the problem, you are saying a cap will stop that problem from occurring. So to say that’s “all” it does should really be more like “all it does is fix your problem.” Again, back to the whole issue of are we saying the problem is dimming lights or not enough electrical power.


I agree with you on the not enough power, if that is how we are defining the problem. But per our earlier discussion, an upgraded aftermarket alternator does not necessarily do any better at solving said issue. And finally, I agree that a capacitor will draw power off the vehicle electrical system. Just like how I had no argument the extra power from a high output alt would come off the engine. It’s either a transfer/storage or conversion of energy thing at work here.



Let me take a second here to sum up my reasoning.
A cap will provide more stable voltage to your amplifier (resulting in less dimming lights, etc.) This is a true, tested, legitimate benefit. I’m not saying 1-2F of capacitance is all you need to fix dimming lights in any install, but many of them. Keep in mind, the battery will also provide as much current as it can after the alternator is working at its maximum. So when my alternator is at its max and the caps are charging and discharging like crazy, the deep cycle battery will supply however much current/energy the vehicle needs. And that’s why I throw my yellow top on a charger every now and again. Because I know it is supplying some of the current the rest of the electrical system can’t when the engine is running, so it needs to be charged up separately.

Yes, an alternator would in theory be the best solution but I have yet to find one (and if there’s one out there PLEASE let me know) that will function the way it claims, taking into account power wires for amplifiers, dealing with the ELD limitations, etc.

TIPPMANN

I was thinking the same thing, just did not want to take the time to type it all out.

I would also like add that the size of the wire used will have a dramatic affect on its ability to flow enough current. Also, a properly installed cap will supply the spontaneous power needed but in return will recharge at a much slower rate. So the cap will not put as much of a strain on the electrical system as say a large amp with out a cap, or multiple amps.

I am currently running 5 amps for a total of close to 4000 watts. I also have a GPS, 35amp AC converter, multi color under body neon kit, in car lighting, and other electrical devices like radar detector and phone charger etc... I am running a 1/O power wire back to a fuse block that all the devices are connected to. Out of the other side of the fuse block is a 4 gauge that runs to my two 1 farad caps. I also have a ground block that allows all the devices to share the same grounding location which is 1/O also and is bolted with washers to the chassis. I am currently running the OEM alternator and I have NO issues at all. I do, just like pie suggested, put my battery on a tender every couple of weeks. I have Sylverstar headlights and the blue LED dash, there is NO dimming at all.

christmaspie

Damn right.

electric130

iTrader: (44)

since you brought up the wire, i hope you've also upgraded your power wire from your alternator to your battery too with all that........

DeX

So it sounds like I need to upgrade the alternator, wiring and battery in order to see any benefits.

twiztedD17A1

While you guys are on the alt. subject can anyone throw up some links to find a larger amp alt?

DeX

haha we're discussing why not to do that...