motayba

Hi all,

My first post here. Just moved to the Seattle area and bought a used 2001 Civic EX. And with a pre-Thanksgiving snowstorm (and prophecies of La Niņa) it looks like this could be the worst winter in some time.

So I went out and bought two sets of tire chains today before they were all snapped up. I'm looking for advice on which to use and which to return.

I know the owner's manual says to use "SAE Class S Cable-type" and I used this to inform my purchase. The tires are P185/65R15 Pirelli M+S P4s (not bad for a used car I understand!)

And I bought these two:
Laclede Chain Alpine Premier Stock # 1530
http://www.lacledechain.com/traction.../alpinepremier

Shur Grip Z (SZ323)
http://scc-chain.com/Traction%20Pages/Trac_SGZ.html

The owners manual specified "cables" and not "chains", saying chains would damage the car, but I'm told (by the guy who sold them to me) that the Alpine Premier chains will be safe for my Civic. It says on the package that they are "SAE Class S" and safe for ABS. So while these were possibly developed since the 2001 manual was printed, I wanted to consult with you experts on which were best for my car.

In short, are these Alpine Premier chains safe for the 2001 Civix EX, or should I go with the cable Shur Grip Z's?

Just from looking at the two kinds, it looks like the Alpine Premier chains would give me better traction over the SG cables, but what do I know (not much)!

Massive, huge thanks in advance to those who can give me some guidance on this. I don't want to hurt my "new" car!

Stay warm and stay safe! (As I hope to with your help!)

MindBomber

I'm in Vancouver, so I know what your going through right now.

I've used cables a number of times in the past in the snow and I haven't had any trouble with my car as a result, I haven't used chains however and generally I would advise you follow the directions provided by the manual. Although these may be a new style of chain, tire chains have been fundamentally the same forever, so the manuals advice would be still prudent. Don't trust the advise of anyone trying to sell you something.

If you haven't driven with cables in the past, I'd suggest you put them on and practice driving for a bit in an empty parking lot. Your cars handling, stopping, traction and overall feel are all very different than dry pavement and its much better to get a feel for it in an open area than on the road with other motorists.

If its in your budget, I would strongly suggest you get at least two winter tires. Although it may be a hassle and an extra expense the added traction and safety make them well worth the it, especially considering they last around five years. Neither chains or cables compare to a winter tire, and you really can only run them when theres snow on the road surface. You shouldn't have trouble finding two snow tires for less than $200.

Aside from tires, don't forget to sweep all the snow off your car! Including the roof

Have a safe warm winter, we don't get heavy snow very often around here so try to enjoy it!

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

stick with cables on the civic. the Z cables are the only ones sold at our honda dealer here and they say anything else can cause damage. and i agree, if it snows alot where you are then i would consider some snow tires like bridgestone blizzak. for occasional snow the cables work just fine and are removable when snow melts.

motayba

Thanks for the replies, guys. Will use the cables and return the chains.

Apparently, it doesn't generally snow much here, so I don't think I'll be buying snow tires. Not yet, at least. It just got unseasonably cold here and turned the usual drizzle into snow.

It only snowed about 2-3 inches yesterday, and the whole Seattle/Tacoma area is pretty much shut down. The city governments just don't have the plows and spreaders to deal with it. Been watching the news a lot, and there have been hundreds of spinouts and accidents.

Seems like FWD, 4WD, snow tires or chains, it's just best to stay off the roads.

MindBomber

Snow tires is a misnomer, thats why they should be referred to properly as winter tires.
Winter tires are made of a different type of rubber than all season tires, a rubber designed to still grip the road when temperatures drop below 7 C, which happens every year in this are. Even if there isn't snow on the ground, your all seasons tires aren't appropriate for the conditions.

Also, every couple years we get a few good weeks of snow.

motayba

Thanks, MindBomber—will keep that in mind. Maybe I'll get them after all.

MindBomber

I hope that didn't come across like a lecture, but they are a good investment. I've seen a few shops in Vancouver that sell snow tires that would fit your car for $75 mounted, balanced and tax in. You should be able to find similar deals in Seattle.

motayba

A little bit!

But appreciated nonetheless.

So you generally leave them on from Nov. to March? And obviously, you mean $75 per tire, yes? Money is tight (which is why I bought a nine-year old car in the first place), so will have to give it some thought.

When it actually snows, you also put the chains (cables) on the winter tires, yeah?

And by the way, I was brushing the snow off the car (including the roof) anyway before it freezes at night, but for no particular reason. Did you say to do that due to a safety concern?

Thanks again.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

you don't live that far up north to need to do that.
these tires are enough, no cables needed for winter/snow tires.
some are called studless as well for there is no need for adding studs.

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

What kind of damage can cables do supposedly? I've not run into any issues running chains.

MindBomber

To get the most use out of snow tires, watch the 14 day forecast and once the entire forecast drops below 7 Celsius put them on. Once the forecast transitions to above include days above 7 Celsius its time to remove them and switch to all seasons or summers.

You can put cables on winter tires, the only time you sometimes need cables with winter tires are in severe conditions, but they help on unplowed side streets.

Studs help, but you don't really need them here. They'e basically little screws in the tread of the tire that grab the road in when it has ice on it. Driving a car with studded tires is horrible, the sound of the studs chipping away at pavement is extremely loud. In places like Calgary studded tires are good to have, but thats currently the second coldest place on earth next to the south pole. I would suggest a cheap set of Asian knock offs if the budget is tight, mine is to I know the feeling, they have funny names like, "snow king", and "winter warrior". Also, you could try craigslist lots of cheap snow tires there. Even if you only buy two, the investment in the added safety is well worth the investment; snow tires will always be less than an insurance deductible.

You should sweep off the entire car, not just the windows if it snows. I know, its a huge pain, but it'll make sense when you hear why. Snow left on the hood blows into the windshield, snow left on the trunk lid blows onto the cars following you, if you leave snow on your roof the heat of the car melts the bottom layer and the first time you stop it will all slide onto your windshield. I've had it happen to me, brushing off the windshield at a stop light isn't much fun

If it makes a difference, I ran for years with all seasons during the winter but I could never go without winters again after feeling the improved traction.

MindBomber

Here's a video from Seattle yesterday, hopefully it will give everyone an idea of why all seasons don't cut it.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rhZCyQ3emQg?fs=1&amp

motayba

Yeah—watching stuff like this on the news has kept me at home the last two days. But do winter tires even help with icy hills like that? I can see how studded tires would help, but I don't see how winters would.

I've been told chains are no help in ice. That true?

motayba

It's the chains that can supposedly damage the car—not the cables. The owner's manual for my 2001 Civic says to ONLY use cables, and that chains can damage the wheel wells, brakes, etc.

What I don't understand is WHY cables are that much safer for your car. They aren't THAT much thinner. And if those Alpine Premier chains say on the package that they are "SAE Class S" and "designed for ABS", I wonder if/why/how they might be okay versus other chains.

Regardless, I won't risk it. I'm using the Z cables as recommended by the above posters!

MindBomber

Winter tires definitely help on icy hills, they've saved me many times. All-season tires use a tread pattern that allows snow to be trapped in the tread, essentially making the tire perform as if it were bald; the tread pattern of winters prevents snow from packing onto the tire. Winter tires also use a much softer tread compound, so when its freezing the rubber remains soft and sticky. The tire compound of all-seasons freezes and becomes hard, removing the ability to grab onto the road.

Chains help a bit on the ice but not much, they're more helpful in deep snow where they have something to grab onto.

klalany

I live in Vancouver as well. Can anyone recommend where to get a good deal on winter tires? My tire size is 205/55-16. I've seen the General Tire Altimax Arctic on JCWhitney.com for $83/tire but that only have it in a 205/60-16 tire size and I'm not sure if that will fit?? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

lordhelmet

iTrader: (3)

I meant chains. Brainfart. Get chains that fit and you won't have any issues.

MindBomber

Whats your budget for tires, what year/model civic do you drive and how fast do you want them? Online is taking two weeks at the moment I believe.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I will have to just add the tread pattern design.
the blocks are all cut all the way down, so they will flet a whole lot more than all seasons and summer tires.
The more they flet, the less they are sliding in the ground.
Naturally, all the above will make them last much less.

klalany

Hi Mindbomber - I have a 2007 civic ex coupe.
Looking to spend upto $150/tire. On the highways I don't go over 120Km/h so nothing too crazy.

Thanks in advance for your help!

MindBomber

Thanks for adding that! I meant to include that in my post, but forum responses on my essay writing break equals fail.

MindBomber

$150 a tire is easy! I'll can give you a few ideas of great tires in that price range.

Michelin Latitude X-Ice tires are at the top of your budget, you be looking at around $155 per wheel. All around it has a decent rating, but it has an especially high rating in wet conditions. They're about $10 more a tire than the super popular X-ice Xi2, but have way better ratings especially in snow.

Hankook W409 Winter i*Pike tires at your budget these are the tires I would purchase, no question. The ratings for this tire exceed every thing else under $150, especially in snow and wet. These tires are listed at $135 per tire online and I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Bridgestone Blizzak WS-70 T tires, these also have a very good rating and I've heard very good things about them from the people local to us using them. These were just launched this year though, so they remain unproven overall. These are $155 per tire online.

General Altimax Arctic tires, I've heard there are a lot of local shops who still have these in stock. They have good ratings and cost the same as the I*Pikes, they just aren't quite as good. Winter tires are becoming scare however, so if you have trouble finding a shop with the Hankook tires I wouldn't hesitate to buy these.

I personally use Nokian Hakkapeliitta R tires, they're unbelievable. Honestly, driving through deep snow feels the same as dry pavement. Very few shops carry them and they cost a small fortune.

Don't get anything with studs, totally pointless for our winters and they're horrible to drive on.

Not sure where in Vancouver your located, but there are a few great shops. Sorat on Esplanade in North Van is outstanding and they have very reasonable prices. Speed Syndicate in Burnaby is also a great local local shop with very reasonable prices and they have one of the best tire mounting machines available!

Please feel free to ask me any other questions, especially about local stuff. Good luck this winter, we're gonna need it!

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

people around here LOVE studs and almost every car i can hear has them. chains too omg, cant tell you how annoying it is to see people driving in slush with the chains ripping thru the roads. then they complain the roads are bad lol. we dont even have bad winters. maybe every few weeks we will have a storm where the roads will be icy for a few days. i survived just fine last year with junk $50 all seasons with no snow traction. slowing down does wonders. the law says youre supposed to drive 1/2 the posted speed limit in snow.

MindBomber

Our local laws allow us to drive as fast as we want in the snow, but the fact that our insurance company is government owned is probably a factor, they love all the extra accident premium money they get every year. I don't know anyone hear who drives with studs, to annoying lol.

MindBomber

For those of you who aren't familiar with the difference in tire types I thought I supplement my earlier posts with some pictures. Hopefully this will be of benefit to some of you.

Summer Tire- Notice the long unending channels in the rubber, they improve the tires grip during the summer. In the winter however, snow can be packed into them very easily, which is why summer tires are dangerous to use in winter.

All Season Tire- The all season is meant to perform in wet conditions, to do that the tire must move water away from its surface, so it can make contact with the road. Notice the channels in the tire point left and right, this drives water away. The continuous channels in the tire still pack snow into them, which is why they perform poorly in snow.

Winter Tire- Notice the winter tire lacks long continuous channels to pack snow into, and furthermore it has very small cuts all through the tread. Those cuts cause the tire to flex and hold the road, but as sdaidoji said, they cause the winters to wear very quickly.

klalany

Hi MindBomber,

Thanks for your suggestions for winter tires and local shop suggestions. I really appreciate the help!

Out of curiosity - would you know if a tire sized 205/60/16 would fit on a 2007 honda civic ex coupe? I know the OEM size is 205/55/16. Seems like the 60 series are a little cheaper.

I'm actually thinking of maybe heading down to Bellingham and checking out Discout Tires - I've seen some pretty good prices online. If they have them in stock that is. I'll give them a call before heading down. The Hancook iPike W409 are $100/tire in the 205/60/16 size. That's why I'm wondering if they'll fit. They're $115/tire in 55 series size. Dollar is pretty close to par so it may be worth while to head south =)

Thanks!

MindBomber

Yup, those will fit just fine.

Honda uses tires with low profile sidewalls, so less rubber is showing between the rim and the tread, because they look nicer. My stock tire size calls for 55 as well, but I'm using 65 because it brings up the front end up a bit higher in the snow.

Going to the States is a good idea, but you absolutely cannot have the tires mounted in the states, you will need to have that done here. If you do and get caught, CBSA will charge HST for the entire value of the vehicle and you'll need to have the car go through an importation inspection.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Oh, my...
It was painful first time, do not want to do the importation stuff again... (US car in temporary importation to canada... which is easier and cheaper than the permanent importation, BTW)

MindBomber

You especially don't want to go through the importation process, if you just crossed the border for a couple hours to buy cheap tires!

klalany

Wow that is good to know! My plan was just to pick them up and bring them across but was contemplating getting them installed there. I definitely won't be doing that now that's for sure.

They have the Hancook iPike W409 in stock for $100/tire in the 60 serier. I think I'll be heading down there and picking those up. I got a guy here in Delta that will mount and balance for $40.

They have the following tires in the 205/60/16 priced at the following. Not sure if all are in stock though. Would you recommend one of these over the Hancooks (assuming they're in stock) ?

Hankook Winter iPike W409 - $100.00each
General Altimax Arctic - $110.00each
Bridgestone Blizzak WS70 - $114.00each
Hankook Icebear W300 - $115.00each
Michelin X-Ice Xi2 - $125.00each