Jack Murphy

Hello all, this is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading it for the longest time and gained so much knowledge from it, so I'd like to thank all the contributors for unknowingly helping me out countless times

now on to my problem, I have a 2000 EX D16Y8 with almost 300k miles, and I've owned it for about 4 months. Recently I've noticed an intermittent high pitch squeaking/chirping coming from what sounds like the drivers side of the engine bay. It's not super loud as to indicate a seized bearing or a belt, but just loud enough to suggest something is wrong. It will show up whenever it wants with no sort of pattern. It's not tied to accelerating, RPMS, breaking, or bumps in the road, but it's quick in succession to suggest it's a part of the belt system. This has been hard to track down because it goes away completely under like 15mph, so I can't use a stethoscope or anything to track it down. I suspect it's the alternator belt or charging system based on my second problem. I have read up on it, and gathered it could be any of the following things
1. A slipping alternator belt
2. Serpentine belt
3. A bearing in any component that uses a belt. - this would be a b*tch to track down given the circumstances
4. possibly my shock/strut - I plan on replacing these soon, so we'll see. I hope I can fix this first
5. A belt under the valve cover? I'd rather not open it up and tamper with it unless I absolutely have to

Problem number 2. Ever since I got the car there has been a subtle flashing of the dash lights that you only really notice when you don't look right at it. I figured it was just a quirk of a 17 year old car, not a big deal. But every once in a while when I have my headlights on, the radio will turn on and off, my SRS light will come on , and my dash lights will flash more than usual. The last time it happened it was so bad the headlights were flashing. It was pretty scary. Instead of accepting that the car is haunted, I'd like to track it down and fix it. Based on other forums I've read, it could be any of these things
1. Loose battery terminals - theyre a little dirty and I can pull them off with my hands without loosening the bolts, but I wouldn't say they're loose enough to cause bad contact
2. A rubbing wire behind my intake? I haven't checked it out yet so maybe
3. A bad alternator diode - possibly, but it's an intensive fix so I'd like to be sure. The car always starts fine. Ive heard autozone tests won't reveal this.
4. A bad ground to car chassis. I sanded down the paint, so it should be ok?

To anyone who made it through all that I commend you lol. Any insight anyone can provide is appreciated. Thank you in advance!

ezone

Issue #1
If it were any type of belt noise, road speed would have no bearing on it at all. If it were belt noise, you should be able to duplicate the condition by simply revving the engine to whatever RPM is necessary to reproduce the noise.


Squeal affected by road speed only: I might suspect a brake pad wear indicator or a rock stuck in a brake.
I can't hear it from my recliner though.


Issue #2
Not enough info to go on, needs some sleuthing.
I might want to put a voltmeter on and drive around with it connected....monitor what the system voltage does when the lights flicker.

What's the difference between 'flicker' and 'flash' in terms of both brightness and length of time?


The SRS/radio comment makes it interesting, not sure if related or not..... When this happens does the SRS light just turn on for like 7 seconds then go out, like someone flicked the ignition key off and on?

Jack Murphy

Thank your for the quick reply ezone

1st issue: I parked the car and revved slowly through 6k RPMs and I wasaid unable to hear the noise. Would a belt noise necessarily be constant? Because mine is not. Sometimes I can drive 10mins without hearing it, sometimes there are repeated, non consistant bursts. Again, not affected by braking, engine revolutions, speed, or road surface, except for the fact that I need to be over 15mph or so. I'm starting to think there's a bird in there!

2nd issue: the best I can describe the dash light flicker is small rapid changes in brightness maybe 15% of the overall brightness. It's usually hard to see, but it happens consistently. During an electrical spaz episode, when the radio will turn on and off, the radio turns off for 7 or 8 seconds, then turns on for 20, then will turn off again, keep in mind this isn't constant. I think the last time it happened, it would turn off when I would decelerate, or step on the brakes. Does braking require more power than acceleration? Did I overtax a circuit or something? The SRS light goes on and off relatively in time with the radio, but not always. Maybe only the first time? (Sorry it's only happened 3 or 4 times, and it's only relatively short drives so not much time to observe)

ezone

Maybe I should have added loading the accessory belt drives by making them do work...load the alternator by operating things that use lots of electricity, load the AC belt by operating the AC system, load the steering belt by turning the steering wheel to lock once or twice, all while varying the engine RPM to match what it was when you heard the noise while driving.

You could jack the front wheels off the ground and let them spin in the air to simulate road speed

Maybe it's body noises or suspension noises? Something loose and rubbing as wind speed increases? Splash shield?



2nd issue.....The ELD system is in place to alter charging voltages depending on loads AND the system can lower charging voltage during low load periods to conserve gas, sometimes going to full charge during coast and deceleration. Honda has been doing this for decades. Sometimes you can see this happen in the lights if you watch, and the system voltage would go from mid-14v (charging on) to low 12v (charging low) whenever it decides it's appropriate. You can see the slight dimming/brightening as the system goes up and down by a couple volts.

However, that can't explain a radio turning on and off, nor the SRS.

But you said the headlights did more than just a slight change? Explain further?

Explain further about how the SRS light acts too. This is important stuff, details are everything.


Do you smell sulfur?
Braking just turns on the brake lights, that's a few amps of current or so but yes it does require electricity.


This is where I would start monitoring voltages. First I want to know what the system voltage is doing when the radio cuts out and when the SRS light turns on.
If they do strange things while the system voltage has risen to well beyond 15.5v, that voltage is way too high and needs resolved. (alternator overcharging?)


If that all looks normal, I might pull the radio and start testing there, it uses 2 power sources and one ground. If I had 3 voltmeters I'd set all of them up to monitor those 3 circuits independently, backprobed into the radio harness so I can see exactly which one of the three changes dramatically when the radio acts up and/or goes stupid. That gives me a very solid starting point for tracing a circuit problem instead of random guessing.

Jack Murphy

Hello again, I've recently been collecting more data about the charging system through a Bluetooth OBDII sensor and an app on my phone. It can tell me current engine voltage when driving. I've been monitoring on and off for a few days, and never have I seen it go under 14.2v., and usually a high of 14.4, but I'm told this is normal so I didn't worry about it.
Today however (when I had just started my car after sitting 3hrs in a cold parking lot) I accelerated from a stoplight hard to see if I could see a drastic change in charging and, voila it shot up to 15.1v, and my radio went dead for a sec and restarted (no SRS light however, these two are usually linked). Afterwards it returned to it's usual voltage numbers and I was not able to get it to do that again at the next few stoplights regardless of tire squealing starts. I have yet to catch it in the act of a serious frenzy (SRS light flash, headlight flash) with my new monitoring syatem, as those are pretty rare, but I will keep experimenting.

another thing I thought to add, since it seems like my car naturally puts out higher than normal voltage, it makes since that in the past, I have burned out chargers that I put in the cars cigarette lighter, including a $40 convertor (it was smoking, literally fried) and a regular car charger. I had accepted the fact that maybe the car wasn't meant to run large electronics through that outlet, but now looking back its starting to add up.

thanks for any input

ezone

Hitting 15v or higher makes me think you may have an alternator that is overcharging, intermittently and randomly.

A rise in voltage would make the lights suddenly get brighter. Too much and you can blow the bulbs, along with many other bulbs.
Electronics (esp. microprocessors) tend to freak out when voltages aren't correct.

The SRS system can turn on its warning light when system voltage rises above about 16v (can't remember the exact figure) and set no fault codes for this event.


If you have a good voltmeter, connect it to the battery and run the engine, compare to your OBD display just to confirm they match pretty damn close to each other.

Jack Murphy

Thank you so much! I didn't know about the SRS voltage limit, this is starting to sound like a more solid theory. I will do the test the next time I get a chance.

I've been reading up on the ELD, and other solutions to similar problems. I've read that similar problems could be caused by an ELD, which controls the alternator output if I'm not wrong. Couldn't this be a culprit for an overworking alternator?

Do you know if an Autozone alternator test reveal any problems, or would they just tell me what I already know? I feel like that would be a waste of time

Could it also be a grounding problem somewhere? The last owner painted the engine bay and didn't sand down to bare metal after the paint job, I've gone around and sanded the AC compressor ground to chassis and the main battery to chassis ground. Are there any others that could affect the charging system that I should check?

again thanks a bunch

ezone

ELD can't cause 'overvoltage', but a bad voltage regulator does (inside the alternator)

Bad grounds might cause it too, at least it's worth checking into it. Wire brush clean and shiny all connections/hardware/mounting of the Neg battery cable to the body/block/trans (and any other ground straps from body to engine/valve cover/engine mount), and poor alt housing bolted connections between the alternator housing and the brackets and block.
(a volt drop test on the ground side from alt housing to battery neg terminal while loaded electrically could quickly indicate if there is a grounding problem or not)


The ELD unit is used by the PCM to monitor electrical system loads so the PCM can control the charging voltage high or low depending on loads and needs, but it can't cause the voltage to go beyond the rated ~14.6v (ish) maximum.
Honda has been using charging system designs like this for a few decades to help conserve fuel.
"If it puts out some amps it must be all good, right?"

Waste IMO ----because it's an intermittent problem....so unless you have it acting up at the very moment they can check it, it will pass the test normally.....and even if it were acting up right then it's very unlikely anyone employed by such an establishment would understand that high voltage is a huge problem---at least not unless their tester tells them it's a problem.


Your own volt meter can be proof enough.

Piranhaz

This is crazy. I posted almost the exact same issue # 2 as you one week ago. The only difference I see is that when mine goes haywire I am seeing upwards of 16 volts. I am thinking alternator but haven't replaced it yet. I'll be watching your post as well now.

ezone

Replace your alternator ASAP before it ruins things like lights, battery, and electronics.

Piranhaz

Just picked one up today. Going in tonight!

Jack Murphy

Update: finally got a few hours last night to clean my grounds (or at least the big 3, battery to chassis, engine to chassis, and tranny to chassis). Sanded everything down to bare metal and tightened all connections. The next morning through, with my lights on, the dash lights still pulsated after a few minutes of driving, and my OBDII sesor read up to 15v cruising with my headlights on. However, my SRS light has yet to come on and my radio has yet to shut off all day. That could just mean it hasn't done it yet, but still might, who knows.

Should I cave and spend +$300 on a new alternator? I'd really rather not if I can avoid it, because it's pricey and a very challenging job on 6th gen civics, especially with just me, a 17yr old working on it. But I would also hate to have an electrical short or fried battery because of overcharging (or worse, an electrical fire)
What do you think I should I check next? Are there any tests you could recommend to find a problem in my wiring? Thank you again for all your help

Colin42

See if there is a place in town to get your alternator rebuilt, cheaper than a new one provided you can find a shop that does a good job, look for a place that has been in business forever.

ezone

You could continue to wait if you want, but I'd be hooked up and monitoring voltages while driving.


When the lights pulsate, what is the range of voltage showing on your meter (high voltage/low voltage)? How fast is the pulsation, time wise? If it's pulsing in 1 or 2 second intervals, I'd say the alternator is causing it. Last time I had one doing this my cheap voltmeter was too slow to display the changes (but the min/max capture function on a high-dollar meter will usually be able to show the true values).
Wrong attitude! You can get a service manual if you have to and tackle it.....just think of how much loot you save not paying a shop $100+/hour to do it for you
A short and a fire aren't bloody likely to happen from this, but a ruined battery and blown light bulbs sure can, along with damage to electronics.

See above.
I expect it to be an internal alternator problem, not a wiring problem.

Jack Murphy

I ordered a new alternator with slightly higher amperage, I think stock for my car is 70 or 75 amps, so I bought an 80 amp one. How much do you think it would be to have a shop do it? I'm not sure I trust myself to replace something so crucial that involves belt tension and whatnot, plus I've heard you need about a 6 foot breaker bar to get the old one off, and I wouldnt have the space under the car to do that. I'm expecting not more than 3 hours of work for a shop to do it? Which makes this a $500 investment. Damn.

Now for the problem evolution: I straight up replaced my engine ground wire with giant copper cable, because my old one had exposed wires that were oxidized. I thought this might have helped the problem, but then yesterday, both times I started the car after sitting outside in the cold a couple hours, (at night so i turned the headlights on too) all the lights in the car are flashing really dramatically for about a minute (very bright and very dark(the pulsating in all the lights is always slightly faster than 1 second apart btw)), including the SRS LIGHT coming on multiple times and my radio turning off. But the funny thing is, after the car warms up, or charges the battery or whatever, the car runs great. No more dash light pulsing the whole drive. Now I'm really confused. Does this mean it's a battery problem because it only happens after startup?
Thanks a bunch

ezone

It still needs the alternator.

Also, I just found my info that says the SRS light turns on at about 16v without setting any fault codes.


Call and ask.
Note:
Some shops won't install customer supplied parts.
Some will jack up the labor fees if you bring in your own parts, and won't give any warranty.

This is how you learn, don't be scurred!

Hell, this is how I started my career..... I was just a 16 y.o. kid with a broken car and no money, and my dad had a box of tools, a floor jack, and the driveway I worked on. Within one week of getting my license, I had to pull the engine out of that car.
Not for an alternator you don't.
WTF you been reading?

Better read up in a real service manual instead.
Or crawl under with wrenches and dive in.

Disconnect battery (make sure you know the radio unlock code if necessary)

grab the alternator belt right now and tug on it so you can feel how much tension is on it, so you have a good idea how far to adjust the new alternator.

disconnect alternator wiring as necessary
unbolt alternator and remove....if you can't get it to come out of the car, you may have to take its mounting brackets off of the engine to make some room.

reinstall in reverse order.

If you don't get the belt tight enough on the first try and it squeals, you can go back in and readjust it tighter as often as you need to until it's right.

Piranhaz

I totally agree with ezone. There are a ton of Youtube videos on this install (trust me, I just did this a couple days ago). Watch the videos and if you have the tools give it a shot.

Jack Murphy

Ok, you've convinced me. Everything I've done up until now I've done myself, which includes new axles, front to back exhaust system, new distributor, new struts, new radio.. etc. And I loved every minute of it. So I consider myself farily mechanically inclined. Just something so serious scared me, plus some of the writeups I read said things like, "I had to call three more people over to help get the bolts off" and "I cannot stress how much of a bear this is" so I'm still cautious of it working out easily, but I think I can figure it out eventually. (It's my daily, so I'd better finish it in time) But thanks for the vote of confidence

btw, I drove about two hours out of town today with some friends, and on the highway it got up to 15.4 volts!! I hope I can make it back with a functioning battery D:

ezone

Hell, replacing an alternator should be a walk in the park for you.


IDK where you are at, but I'm in the salt and rust belt.... Over the years I've only encountered a couple of serious seized hardware problems on that car and that job. (the long bolt on the bottom got stuck and would not move)
The rest have come apart without big problems.

Jack Murphy

I'm also in the rust belt, in the heart of salt season Michigan UGH!! Anyway, do you by chance remember what size the tough bolt is so I can pick up a six sided socket? Mine are all 12 sided and strip every bolt that's even a little tough. I'm gonna get some bolt buster too just in case

ezone

Oh hell do you realize how long it's been since I saw one of those cars? And how many other cars I've seen since then?

Start soaking everything in PB blaster/rust buster now!



IIRC the nut on the end of the long bolt that you reach through the wheelwell to get is a 14mm socket....the opposite end is a weird D shape or large square that is supposed to catch in the bracket to keep it from spinning. That long bolt has to slide out toward the transmission to let go of the alternator. If it's free and moves easy, you're just about home free LOL.

Top bolt takes a 12,
hot cable nut may be 10 or 12.....probably 10
brackets on the block may be 12 or 14. Probably 14.

99% of the car was built using 8, 10, 12, 14, 17, and 19mm wrenches stock.