Bantymom

I everyone. I'm new here and need your advice/help (The car is a 1999 Honda Civic DX Hatchback with 325,000 miles on it. I am the original owner and it has always been a wonderful car and has received regular checkups.)

Coming back from a trip to Southern California (10 hours round trip) and then to Mendocino (10 hours round trip), I noticed a rattling sound coming from the car that seemed to be correlated to the use of the air conditioner, so I took it into the dealership. The mechanic came out to listen and warned me that my compressor was probably gone and that there was a lot of coolant all over the engine and that I probably had blown a head gasket; that my particular Honda is particularly notorious for blowing head gaskets.

Sure enough, they later called me to tell me that I needed a new compressor and other AC parts and that the head gasket was blown (just one head? does that even make sense?) and that one of the rings was bad (I’m not sure what kind of ring). I would need a new engine (well, not new, as they are not available, but they could put in a rebuilt motor with a 12000 mile guarantee on it.)

Maybe it does, but the mechanic just made me feel so uncomfortable.

I’m a woman and I just got the feeling that he thought I was stupid. I’m not a mechanic, but I can understand things just fine if they are explained to me.

He said I had overheated the engine, but why hadn’t that shown up at all on the temperature gauge on the dash for all that time I was driving? Then he said that the fan must have kept it from getting hot enough from showing up on the gauge. It was rock solid at exactly half way the entire trip. How can that be? Not hot enough to move the gauge, but hot enough to destroy my engine? He also told me that my radiator was shooting liquid all over the place and so it was empty, which would make the engine overheat, but again, no movement on the gauge?

No wet spots under the car.

Additionally, 4 months ago, it was making a rattling sound and I took it to the local dealership where I learned I needed to replace the exhaust manifold, heat shield, and gasket. As long as I was there, they did the following as well:
Installed new timing belt, water pump, drive belts, cam seals, crank seal, valve cover gasket, refilled cooling system, performed some kind of power steering service, replaced the spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and adjusted the engine valves.

Note the replacement of the water pump and refilling of the cooling system. Don’t they do a pressure test on the radiator when they do that? If the radiator were about to become a squirt gun, would it look old a rusty when they were working on the car 4 months ago? Can a radiator go from fine to a piece of junk in 4 months?

I want more information, but I don’t even know what questions to ask. How do I ask how he determined that the head gasket is blown? Is there really something (head gasket sealer?) I can pour into my car (coolant system?) to plug the holes? How do I know that it is the parts of the gasket that border the water that failed?

If I need to put in a rebuilt engine, then that’s what I need to do, but I also don’t want to be swindled either. (Note, he didn’t tell me I needed a new radiator, oddly enough).

I want to take it to another mechanic for a second opinion, but can I drive it? If I need a new engine, how can I be sure that the engine they want to put in is ok? 12000 mile guarantee just doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Very long, very rambling. Thank you for your patience and for any help/suggestions you can give me.

Cheers,
Bantymom

mac25

First you need to find out if the head gasket is blown.

I'd say line up a second inspection and if you're going to drive it make sure the radiator is full and that you have extra coolant to add to it while driving, that way if it is dumping coolant you can pull over, let it cool down and top up the coolant (or you could pay to have it towed).

The reason that the coolant would be low is that when a head gasket blows (which is almost always due to overheating) it lets combustion gas from the cylinders blow into the coolant system. This in turn over pressurized the coolant system and causes the coolant to dump out of the radiator into the overflow reservoir (this is why you wouldn't see it on the ground, because the overflow res is designed to catch the fluid).

If your head gasket is blown, you will need to fix it and also locate and fix the initial issue, which lead to the over heating (fan switch blown, fuse, thermostat not functioning, something like that); Other wise it will lead to another overheating situation and another blow head gasket.

ezone

With that high mileage I'd recommend an engine replacement too, along with a bunch of other stuff like all the rubber hoses and a maybe radiator and fan(s) depending on their condition.

It makes the most sense, if you're going to dump money into a car with that many miles don't half-*** it.

Most people would just walk away from it and buy another car. Few would fix something with high miles like that, but some do it willingly.

Bantymom

Thanks guys!

Just a few more questions....

Why didn't the heat gauge ever go up beyond half way (not even a little bit) if the engine was over heating?

Is there anything else besides overheating that would cause the gasket to fail?

In mac25's scenario, if the gasket failed first, would the over-pressurization of the cooling system cause the radiator to spring a leak or leaks? Would that kind of event have been audible (radio was off) or noticeable? I was taking the car in because of a slight rattling sound related to the air conditioner and I was listening carefully to be sure I could make it perform on command when I got there.

I want to trust the mechanic to told me the bad news, but it needs to make sense, and the engine-temp gauge didn't show even the slightest hint of an overheating engine (yes, I am fanatically sure), and they tested the gauge to make sure it was functioning properly (they insist that it over-heated and I just didn't notice).

I am taking it to another mechanic tomorrow. What tests on the engine should I ask them to perform?

What questions should I ask? I want to be prepared.

If I go with putting in the reconditioned 97,000 mi. engine, what can I do to be sure that it is in good condition? Any tests? Any assurances I should ask for? Where do reconditioned engines come from anyway? How likely is it that there really is no new engine available? Are they just saying that or is it clearly impossible for one to exist for a 16-year-old car?

To ezone: nope, wouldn't half-*** it! Yes, radiator is on my list of replacements as well as all the bits that go with the cooling system (that weren't already replaced 5 months ago) and the engine parts (that weren't already replaced 5 months ago).

Thanks!

ezone

One theory might be that if the coolant temperature sensor is no longer submerged in liquid, then it cannot accurately report the temperature of that liquid.



Time and miles would be a great guess. They can and do fail without overheating, and the subsequent loss of coolant causes overheating.
The counter can also be true, overheating can compromise the integrity of the gaskets sealing ability.
Depends on which came first, and none of us were there to witness the events nor can we inspect the smoldering remains.

Example, if your engine had a heater hose pop (the one that gets soaked by oil leaking from the distributor on the end of the cylinder head?) and lose a bunch of coolant and run hot 6 months ago, that event could have been a leading cause of the head gasket problems now. Damage is not always readily apparent instantly after an event, sometimes it takes a long time to rear its ugly head.

Depends on how exactly the previous radiator failed, and we can't see that now.
In addition, your current radiator could have been damaged during this newest overheat event too. Steam erosion is common in a severe overheat.

The plastic end tanks of many radiators don't last forever, I see them develop stress lines as they age. Stress lines lead to likely failure points. (cracking)

It happens a lot. It only takes a few seconds for damage to occur and if you weren't staring at the gauge at that very minute....



"How much will it cost to replace the engine and all the other little stuff to ensure this engine will last for a long long time?"

If they can't provide you with details and documentation to answer these questions IN PRINT, I'd assume this will be simply a USED engine, subject to all the wear and tear and needed services that any used car would need. As in it was pulled from a crashed, used car in a junkyard.
Warranty. And documentation along with the rebuilders warranty information if it is truly a reman engine from a company such as Jasper or others. (http://www.jasperengines.com/)


NEW from Honda would be rather expensive (if they are still available at all). Honda didn't supply complete engines, you had to order major parts (block assembly and head assembly) and put them together yourself.


Rebuilding your original engine can be time consuming and can get expensive, it's darn tough to put an accurate price on a job that big until you are deep into it and committed. AND the mechanic that does the work would have to stand behind it if something goes wrong and becomes a warranty situation, and a big company like Jasper can stand behind their products far better than an individual in a shop.

Replacement engine install (used or reman) is the cost effective choice IF you want to continue driving this high mileage car.....Now the question is, what will break next?


JMO, YMMV. HTH

Bantymom

ezone, great information! Thanks!

Just got a call from the second opinion. He can't find anything wrong with the engine.

I asked if there were numbers from whatever tests they did (I don't know know engines are tested), and he said that he ran a smog test on it. He detected no hydrocarbons in where-ever they aren't supposed to be (He was more specific, I just can't remember what he said) and that there was no smoke coming from the exhaust.

Yes, radiator needs to be replaced.

Is the smog test enough?

Is there some other test I should ask him to do?

Is there a compression test?

What is a leak-down test?

ezone

A smog test alone or a compression test alone----while failing a test might prove there is a problem, passing a given test does not rule out a problem. It only means you didn't use a test that can prove the problem.

Those cannot IMO conclusively disprove a head gasket breach. Other testing can prove it reliably for me.
(Many of the failures I encounter will pass every other test most people can think of with flying colors....while the problem is minor. If ignored, the problems get bigger and easier to detect.)

This (lame) video shows the method I use to prove leakage from the combustion chamber into the cooling system. Not only prove, but identify exactly which cylinders are leaking. I apply shop air pressure (150-175PSI) to each cylinder individually and inspect for leakage in the cooling system.

Bantymom

ezone, that video was very clear and helpful (not lame!) I understood it and can see how it works. I can also see how it is a definitive test.

Other info from the 2nd mechanic:
1) Oil is not coffee-colored
2) No mayonnaise-colored or latte-colored scum on the radiator cap
3) There was no bubbling in the radiator (I don't know what test he did for that, perhaps something similar to what you showed in the video. I will ask)

He is doing a compression check right now. When he calls back, I will ask him to do this test in the video.

I know that the car is old and that I need to start looking for a new one. If I am going to get a new car, I don't want to replace the engine in this one first if I don't have to. If the gasket isn't compromised, it gives me time to do research on a replacement.

Let me make sure I understand what you do, since I have to explain it over the phone:
1) Remove Schrader valve from compression tester hose.
2) Remove the stuff in the holes (spark plugs?) (sorry for lack of correct vocabulary)
3) Figure out which cylinder is on the compression stroke and find top-dead-center
4) Put funnel in radiator
5) Put compressed air into the cylinder?

Bantymom

Results of the compression test:
135
100
90
100

Mechanic 2 is doing ezone's air-pressure-cylinder-leak test now.

If that shows no rise in coolant level or no bubbles, what else could be causing the pressure difference between the cylinders? (Mechanic #1 said that I have a bad ring in one of the cylinders, would that have anything to do with it?)

ezone

email or text the video link to them?

The video linked was in real time, it took less than 10 minutes to prove beyond a shadow of doubt there is a problem on 3 cylinders in that particular engine.



Also check out the first post in this thread, it touches on most of the stuff you asked about or mentioned....even though it's primarily about 7th gen 1.7L engines, most of it also applies to 6th gens such as yours.
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

ezone

I expect 180-200 PSI when I do the test using my own equipment and methods. I cannot vouch for their test results....but that does not look promising at all.

Next step is to figure out where the loss is going. Valves -- or rings not sealing efficiently.

"wet compression test" should evaluate rings, then a leakdown test to evaluate valves or a cooling system breach.

Valve adjustment should be verified and corrected if they are too tight too, as that can cause low compression numbers.

At 300k+ anything is possible.