civlxbro

So here's what's going on,

We had our first streak of Spring here in NJ last week and it was actually pretty hot the one day. I turned on the AC probably for the first time since I got my radiator changed last year around the beginning of Fall. When I got back on to the highway, I turned the AC off and shortly after my temp gauge started rising to the point it was maxed out.

Shortly before I pulled over it went back down to it's normal level?????. I continued driving and then it went back up and I immediately pulled over. I turned the car off, popped the hood to see what is going on. I come to see I have radiator fluid lightly splashed all over the place.

I can't do anything at this point because I don't have anything on hand so, I wait it out about 5min or more to let it cool down and then carefully get back on the move. The car is fine and I get to work. I figured if there were a leak or anything like that, I would come to see an empty tank when I got out of work. Sure enough, my reserve tank was completely empty, but with no puddle underneath the car? So, I assume the rad finally opened up and sucked everything up? This may hold true because my 30min drive home was fine with no temp issues.

I didn't use the AC for the rest of the weekend and everything has been fine. I figured there was maybe a clog and when it freed up, the rad sucked up all fluid from the reserve tank and it created back pressure which splashed some fluid on the engine bay???

Today, Monday, was hot again and I used the AC again to come to find the "exact" same problem happen. This time I had fluids on hand just in case it were to happen again, I topped everything off and started to troubleshoot.

I started reading into possible head gasket issues. I'm wondering why the heck this overheating issue is happening and then why I'm losing all of this coolant and how in the heck it's splashing on the engine bay.

First I think, my Tstat may be getting stuck in the closed? position after I turn the AC off causing the overheating and then when the rad runs dry and sucks fluid from the reserve tank, it kicks some coolant out.

Then, I leave the rad cap off and didn't really notice any bubbles with the car running so, I reved the engine and sure enough the harder I rev, the higher the geyser of coolant came out.

My tailpipe, I put my hand behind it, built up some moisture on my palm and small amount of water at the end of the pipe. This sole issue here I want to say has been like this for a very long time though so, it may not be indicative of a head gasket issue.

My valve cover does have a lot of oil build up on it which I had hoped was just a valve cover gasket was all that was needed. This hasn't been fixed sooner because I didn't really know this was an issue (I know stupid me).

Sorry for the extensive write up, I could have probably wrote more lol Can anyone make anything of this and help me out? I haven't had a chance to look at the spark plugs to see if any coolant was in there because I am just now discovering how bad this could be.

ezone

Normal. Water is a normal byproduct of combustion. Chemistry 101.


Did you open the radiator cap and find it low? Or did you just fill the white reservoir?


What car is this? 6th gen? what year? all that stuff.

Does it have radiator and condensor side by side, or stacked?

Does the radiator fan work? Does it work correctly? Does it work every time?


If the radiator fan and motor looks like this, it might not be much good...

civlxbro

Lol yeah if they looked like those pictures and I didnt know, well...I wouldnt be much good at all here trying to troubleshoot this lol

I appreciate the quick response my friend and hope you and maybe others can see this through and continue to chime in.

ezone

This isn't right.

I'd say to start fresh: completely fill and burp the radiator and cooling system first, then fill the reservoir just to the full marks.
Test the radiator cap and inspect the sealing surfaces in the neck of the radiator.
Make sure all the overflow system hoses are intact, correctly routed, and leak free.(The hose that extends from the cap and goes down into the bottle, that's not missing or curved up??)

Assuming the above is all working correctly...
If it pushes so much liquid that it overflows the reservoir, and leaves the radiator low of fluid, then I'd be doing my head gasket checks. (Actually I'd probably start with those checks first.)



I'm not sure YET how or why your AC operation would have much to do with engine overheating --- because the 2 units are side by side, therefore (mostly) independent of each other as far as external cooling (fans). Unless your radiator fan quits operating when the AC is running, or something strange like that.

civlxbro

I could definitely agree.
First thing I wanted to do was simply change the valve cover gasket because you could see a lot of oil buildup on the valve cover.
I was also going to change the thermostat but was wondering if it was necessary to change the coolant as well at this time.

here is a video - how does everything look. I apologize for not turning the phone sideways so, hope use can get a good look.

Sorry for the late reply but my car has not moved in a few weeks and I've been inactive because I was away on business. I had my wife starting the car up here and there and taking it for a short drive just to keep everything flowing.

There was some good pooling of oil all around the valve stems? You can see in pics effete it's all dark at the bottom.

civlxbro

here are some shots, I hope this helps to see if anything doesn't look right under the valve cover

ezone

It would be an ideal time to do so.


Um, now I know what Stevie Wonder feels like at the movies.





Looks average to me. Yes there is supposed to be oil all over there.

civlxbro

Yeah that's what I was trying to say. It looks pretty good with all of the oil pooled up and not dry or anything like that. So even with the buildup of oil on the valve cover, it's doesn't seem to be burning oil as everything looked fresh under the valve cover, dipstick I check regularly and always looks clean.

Unfortunately I had an expected call today so, the thermostat will have to wait. I'm still crossing my fingers that is what the problem is. Ever since I stopped using the ac (noticing this was the only time the problem occurred when I turned it back off), the problem hasn't shown until last weekend. It was a pretty hot day and just as I was parking the temp gauge went up and then cooled back down. I swear this sounds like a thermostat on its way out and for $20, even if it is not the problem, it could use a change because I had to swap it out for 3-4years ago.

ezone

You know, I made the Stevie Wonder comment because I did not find a link to any video in that post.

Are you using a factory thermostat this time? I hope so.
3-4 years would be an extremely short lifespan for a factory stat.

civlxbro

Lol oh I see now ha yeah, after taking the video and seeing it would not be as great a representation as I hoped, I opted out for pictures from the video instead as they were a little more clear.

No, factory thermostat has been changed out a while back. I am an running aftermarket and will be again when I change it.

So, I am sitting in traffic yesterday and stuck at a standstill for a long period of time. What happens...temp gauge starts to slowly make its way up. Sure enough, the second I start moving, the needle makes its way hotter and hotter. Just as I am about to pull off at the first opportunity and inspect, the needle goes back down to normal operating temps and all is good.

This sounds to me like it has fan and or relay or thermostat written all over it...

ezone

That scenario doesn't make me think thermostat.

It makes me think more along the lines of low coolant level in the radiator (or has air trapped somewhere in the cooling system), or the radiator fan was not running when it should have been....

Those should be simple enough to check.

I know in another post you said the radiator fan runs fine, but does it actually run when it should? Is it running at the time your temp gauge shows it getting too hot?


Another thing to think about: Is the temp gauge lying to you?
Got a scanner you can plug in to read live data from the computer?

civlxbro

First I have to say how appreciative I am of your continued support ezone.

Well, while we've been discussing this, I haulted on replacing the thermostat because even though it was only $20 and say 20min of my time, I'm not for changing things just to change them.

What doesn't make sense is how this problem could have originally triggered itself after I turned off the AC. Could this have somehow caused air to be trapped in the lines? To answer your question, yes the rad fan was running when this happened. I pulled over and jumped out after popping the hood. Rad fan was on and coolant was spritzed around on the engine bay.

I had a new radiator installed a little less than a year ago with a coolant flush. Is it possible that they didn't fill the system with enough coolant and that when I turned the AC on months later, it required a large amount of coolant to cool things down bringing my coolant levels low in the system. Now bringing me to this almost weekly problem of a quick scare of overheating and then it calms back down to normal temps.

I've been adding coolant manually as needed topping off the rad but, maybe it's not enough because the engine is cool and I'm not burping the system allowing the tstat to open and close thus completely filling the system, hence the continued problem?

civlxbro

Deleted

When burping the coolant system, I've seen people just turn the heat to high and I've seen people turn the heat to high and the fan/blower to high for the heat too.

Which is ideal?

ezone

Any idea where it leaked out from?

The reservoir? Done any head gasket checks?
How often are you having to add coolant?


Doesn't make sense to me.
The radiator is supposed to stay completely full at all times, that's how the system works, regardless of heat load.
Was your radiator low?




Depends on your goal.

When I do it, I want the heater core to burp AND get the thermostat to open as quick as possible in the shop.
That means no heater fan at all, but temp dial or lever on full heat for full coolant flow through the heater core.



Running the heater and heater fan on full blast can double the length of time it takes to get the thermostat to open on some engines.

HTH

civlxbro

sounds to me like I won't be putting the fan on. Generally speaking that sounds backwards and that having the fan and temperature control on high heat would get the tstat to open quicker.

ezone

There probably would have been evidence that the liquid (leak, spray, whatever it was) began at the reservoir, if you checked it right away. Battery and tray wet, fan shroud wet, etc., all evidence looks like it originates at one spot.....?


Many times head gasket combustion leaks are very small and slow, it takes a long period of time to displace enough liquid out of the radiator to cause the reservoir to overflow. Some people find it will push coolant into the reservoir and cause it to overflow during a long period of driving, as in a highway trip. Or just extended running time with some load. It all depends on the severity of the breach (leak).

Some of the cars might take weeks of in-town driving to get this to happen if the leakage is miniscule.


Only if an air bubble surfaced after the stat opened. That's part of "burping" the system upon fill up.


sounds like you never checked if it needed more after the initial cold fill up. Sure is possible it was not completely full, had air trapped somewhere.

Quote:

Any links to a diy

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

It makes more sense once you understand how all parts of the systems work, and work together.

The heater core is a small radiator, it is designed to remove heat from the hot liquid flowing through it. Just like the radiator.
The thermostat is supposed to let liquid with (excess heat) flow to the radiator to dissipate the heat. If the heater core can dissipate enough of the heat, the thermostat doesn't need to open to flow heat to the radiator.
In the winter, some cars can double the length of time it takes to reach operating temperature if the heater is running.

-----------------------

How is your radiator pressure cap? Does it hold the specified pressure in the system?
Have you changed the thermostat again yet?
Is the antifreeze in there 50/50 mix?

civlxbro

It may be long but Please Read so full understanding of the situation.

I'm back in the area from business and here's what we are up against.

I burped the system on MDW, Monday last week. I hooked up the funnel, filled it half way, turned the temp **** to heat and kept the blower off. I then started the car and let it run for an hour so it could cycle several times.

I started to think maybe my radiator fan was the issue so, I had alligator clips ready to test afterwards (which was stupid because if it didn't come on while trying to burp the system, it would render the earlier useless because I would have to turn the car off to cool down, end rant). From the second I started the car, tons of bubbles were coming up. Big, small, pretty much non stop the entire time the car was on. After about a half hour the radiator fan kicked on which was a good sign (because now I'm literally watching everything going on to properly monitor) and then did several times again for the remaining hour.

What threw me off was that everything I read said that the funnel should be half full because when the thermostat opens up, the levels will drop to take more in from the funnel and then fill back up. This will completely fill the lines. However, the level of fluid in the funnel did not drop once.

So everything is good all week long and I'm driving to visit my parents this past Sunday 6/1/14. Just as I pull into the driveway, the temp gauge goes up. No fluid sprayed on the engine bay (like the first time or two this happened) or anything like that. I hung out for a while, car cooled off and I drove to my next destination. About halfway there, the temp gauge starts to go up, I start driving and it cools back down. This happens one more time before I then get to my friends. By the time I left there, it was much later in the night, cooler out, I had no issues with the temps rising and car overheating.

Yesterday, Monday, 6/2/14, after troubleshooting and seeing burping the lines didn't solve anything, changing the thermostat was the next course of action.

I already had one on hand so I quickly swapped that out. I didn't bleed the system entirely because I literally could not break the bleeder valve loose. I hope when I had the radiator changed a little more than a year ago, they didn't over tighten something and create a small continuous leak (I read somewhere something can be over tightened?)

I hooked everything back up and then put the rad funnel back on the radiator and filled it halfway. I let the car run for 45min burping the system all over again to ensure everything was full. Now I'm going to check the rad level literally day and night and check if it's remaining full. Last night, the rad was full to the neck still. This morning I came out and checked it and it was lower. I had to add a little less than a quarter of a .5l water bottle of coolant to top it off. However, my car is parked on a decent incline on my driveway so, this may have caused all of the fluid to pushed towards the back of the lines leaving some space for more fluid?

I've also noticed I think twice now, but I can legitimately say one time because I tracked it, I lowered the coolant reservoir to about mid point of the low and high lines. I just checked right now and it was filled about 1/4-1/2in over the max line.

civlxbro

I'm starting the think the worst is upon me, a blown head gasket. I may have to bring it in for a pressure test?

ezone

Go to the link provided in the previous reply.....check out how I pressurize each cylinder to prove a leak.

civlxbro

Will do. Here's an update, car starts overheating earlier today which has been the quickest this has started back up. This time I jump out and look and the radiator fan is not on. I drive, the temp cools down and just as I'm getting home, car starts to overheat again, I jump out and the radiator fan is not on.

Could the fan switch be good but the relay be bad or vice versa causing this?

ezone

Didn't you check to see if the coolant is low in the radiator?

That alone would do it, and it might not even cause the fan to come on.

Jumper the 2 wires at the temp switch. Does the fan run?

civlxbro

Well, it was just when I pulled up to the house and literally after finishing dinner because we were out to eat, the car was cool so I filled it with an "entire" .5l bottle of coolant. The drive there lead to some serious overheating out of nowhere.

So for it to start overheating after filling it before our drive home and then the fan to not be on? I don't think it would be that low. Plus, where is all of this coolant going? I notice some on the top of the bottom plastic skid plate basically underneath those lower hoses, but no where near enough to warrant a whole .5l bottle worth.

I figured the fan was good to go being that when I burped the system, it came on several times during the hour. I guess now I'm going to have to test each switch.

Could one switch be good and turn the fan on point A but the other switch or relay be bad and not turn the fan on at point B if that makes sense? or they all work in conjunction? If one isn't working the fan won't turn on period?

ezone

What did you see that said overheat? Belching antifreeze, steam, temp gauge high?

Could the temp gauge be lying to you? (yes)

Got a scanner that can read live data from the PCM?

I wouldn't bother yet. If it cycled several times on its own, then I'd think it's ok unless something went bad since then.


There is only one temp switch controlling this style fan setup (side by side). Coolant temp operates the radiator fan directly in stock configuration. The PCM also has the ability to operate the fan.
(Both of these actually operate the fan relay, which in turn operates the fan.)

A good wiring diagram should show all of this.

civlxbro

So next line of work, I added a bit of straight full strength coolant to the reservoir. I actually have been making my own mix bc I have full strength and I may have been making it a little too weak? possibly causing these issues, say 55 or 60% water, rest coolant. I also changed the radiator cap. Even though the gaskets on my original looked fine, it still could have been worn. Rad has been maintaining fluid to just below neck for 1.5 days now.

When I got home tonight, the car already was at full operating temperature, put it in park popped the hood then turned the air conditioner on. The rad fan did not come on but the condensor fan (fan next to rad fan) did.

Also, before leaving for work earlier today, I checked the level of fluidin the rad which wasright below the neck abd in the reservoir which was right in between thehigh and low mark. After getting out of work, I checked the fluid again. The level in the rad looked to be the same although could have been slightly lower, but I could still see it was full. However, the reservoir was now filled up to the high mark.

ezone

Should be fine.
Straight antifreeze does not transfer heat well, water does.

Sounds correct. Radiator fan does not need to run with AC on, the condenser fan does.
High coolant temp is what should turn on the radiator fan.

When you are checking these levels, remember that engine heat causes the liquid to expand. Therefore the level in the reservoir SHOULD rise (some amount) as the engine heats up the liquid. The amount of liquid required to rise from midway to the full mark sounds like normal expansion.

Normal liquid expansion is one thing.
Overflowing the reservoir because of overheating, or because combustion gases displaced a bunch of liquid from the radiator is quite another.


Even if you fill the reservoir to the max line with a cold engine, there is supposed to be enough room in the bottle for normal expansion without overflowing at normal operating temperature..

This still makes me think you need to do head gasket checks.

civlxbro

Roger that. I'm keeping an incredibly close eye on coolant levels after replacing the cap. The reservoir is at the same height, but I could no longer see a level of fluid in the rad. This could be due to parked on an incline.

Shouldn't you always be able to see a level of coolant in the rad when removing the cap? There aren't any puddles under my car and there hasn't been a sign of coolant being sprayed on my engine bay since this originally happened a month or two ago.

So something new/odd happened on my drive in to work this morning. My car's temp gauge was showing it was working its way up to normal operating temps. It reached that point and then atsome point during my commute while I'm watching the gauge like a hawk , the needle went down about an 1/8th, hung out there for a bit then eventually made its way back to middle. Could this be from the added full strength? What's this about?

Agreed on compression test though. Waiting to see how if changing the rad cap does anything along with the added full strength to help balance out the original weak mixture I may have made. It could even be that I have too much water in there to coolant ratio and it's creating so much more heat and pressure than the rad cap/system can handle?

ezone

Not sure what you mean by this wording.

This cooling system is designed to always keep the radiator completely full at all times. (When everything is working correctly)

This is one instance where having a scanner that can read live engine data would be beneficial. See if it agrees with what the gauge indicates.
Compression test won't show if the head gasket is blown 99% of the time.

Ok.

It doesn't work that way.


Go buy a $1.50 antifreeze checker and check it. Freeze protection level indicates the ratio.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...er=529701_0_0_

civlxbro

No compression test? If I recall correctly, a leak down test I believe it's called than?

Also, when I got home today, I popped the hood to check on things and the fluid in my reservoir was bubbling a little bit.

ezone

A true leakdown test uses a dedicated tester with pressure regulated to like 30 PSI, which usually isn't enough to push past a breach.

I connect 160-170 PSI directly out of the shop air hose directly into each cylinder for my test.

civlxbro

So I have a reservoir that's fulI past the max point and a rad that I can no longer see fluid at or past the neck. This is when I would normally fill the rad up but, I left it alone this time to see if things would go differently with the new cap. Each time during my drive I thought it was going to overheat proving the new cap didn't fix anything, it didn't overheat. I finally park and let my car idle to see if I can push it to the point of overheating. Sure enough, the needle starts to go up. I pop the hood and hurry to take a look. Good sign that the rad fan is on, I think we're in business and it's cooling things down, but no luck and the needle is still high and slowly rising.