OptimisticWay

I am currently restoring a 2005 Civic EX Special Edition D17A2. Over the next week I will be:

1. changing the oil & filter

2. replacing the rear crank seal, front crank seal, camshaft seal

3. Installing new timing belt, timing belt tensioner pulley, water pump

4. Installing new clutch, pressure plate, through out bearing, pilot bearing, and having the flywheel resurfaced. Genuine Honda Manual Transmission Fluid will be replacing the old fluid

5. New bushings for the front lower control arms LCA

6. K&N air cleaner will be installed

7. Bosch Platinum IR Fusion 100k mile spark plugs installed

8. New power steering belt & combination A/C alternator belt will be installed

9. Complete flushing of the brake fluid lines from the master cylinder to the calipers and wheel cylinders as well as the clutch lines

10. Data Codes will be pulled if any

11. Compression test performed and results documented

12. Obtaining the Radio Code

13. Tires inspected and rotated

If you choose to comment in this thread or make factual statements contradicting my choices, please supply evidence from a credible source and/or document or you WILL BE IGNORED.

OptimisticWay

OptimisticWay

bsmiley

Flywheel shouldn't be resurfaced per past posts from Honda master techs.
looks like you'll have a very nice Civic soon.

mcnoople

I would not use anything but ngk/denso on any honda. Bosch have a nasty habit of causing check engine light misfire codes. I strongly suggest using an exact replacement of the original plug. The factory installed plug was good enough for 100K+ miles it is clearly a quality component.

OptimisticWay

0.15mm is the limit. Contacting your local Honda dealership will supply you with the same specifications.

I had the same flywheel in a 2001 Civic LX Sedan resurfaced and installed in a friend's car two and a half years ago. He is still my friend today and the car has no issues with its resurfaced flywheel.

A new aftermarket flywheel is $200.00. Honda has it listed at $286.70. I can see why some would say not to have them resurfaced, there is money to be made.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...RQUE+CONVERTER

mcnoople

The reason honda states to NOT resurface isn't due to them sticking to the owners. Not all flywheels are flat from the factory. No machine shop can properly recreate the slightly domed shape that some flywheels have from the factory.

OptimisticWay

I don't know what you are trying to say. Honda PROVIDES THE SPECS for turning the flywheel. A flywheel needs to be perfectly flat to sandwich the clutch in between itself and the pressure plate.

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. If you have evidence, then please present it. If you have conjecture, watch the video and please stop commenting on this thread.

ezone

Apparently they can't tell you what the spec means.


The spec of 0.15mm is the max runout limit on the clutch mating surface, not a machining limit.

The service manual says resurfacing is not recommended, page 12-10 in the 01-05 Civic manual, step 3 of flywheel inspection.

I'll follow the manual on this one, I'm not making this up as I go. I don't need to do the job over for free.

Reverb2005

When I had my input shaft bearing replaced, Honda actually suggested that I re-machine the flywheel too! I've been driving it for another 60K Km since then and have not had any clutch problems at all. Not to say the manual doesn't say not to, it clearly does, I can't believe Honda would suggest to machine it when it isn't even recommended!

OptimisticWay

Do you have proof of this?

I have been using these plugs for every car I own since the late 90's and have never had a problem. I have been running them in my CRX HF for almost 12 years without issue. I have had them in my 85 Z28's, 85 tercel, & 84 CRX DX. I currently have them in my HF, EJ11, & EJ8.

This is the Internet and people are going to make wild claims without any supporting evidence. Show me the proof.

Reverb2005

I know that some people have had problems using Bosch SENSORS (A/F, O2, etc) in the past (rather than what Honda uses at the factory, which is NTK or Denso) so this may be where the confusion lies.

It seems Honda uses NTK from the factory and plugs are of a much simpler design than a sensor. I would go with your experience on this one....

mcnoople

No proof at all. I have worked as a full time tech in a honda dealer since 2003. I did move to another brand (toyota) for about 3 years and then came back to honda. I have seen numerous cars with a CEL caused by a bosch plug.

I am happy that you have had good experiences with them in your cars. But I do ask you this: How many of those cars that you have used them in are OBDII? The PCM can detect tiny variations in crank shaft speed and uses that data to calculate misfires. You can NOT always feel a misfire. I have watched misfire counters on scan tool data lists on cars that ran perfectly fine to everybody in the drivers seat.

Since I became a full time tech (amatuer for several years prior to 03) I have seen a total of 1 bad ngk/denso plugs. It was on a prius with 40K miles. No explanation of why it failed but it did. The factory specs ngk/denso plugs for a reason. They will last for 100k miles with no maintenance and no worries. Yes they are a little more expensive, but how often do you plan to change them. I would rather spend the extra $ now and not have to do it again later.

But this is all just my opinion.

OptimisticWay

EJ8 is OBD2A. It is a 1996 Civic EX Coupe 5 speed manual. Come to think of it, the 2001 LX Sedan I replaced almost everything on, I also installed Bosch spark plugs in that vehicle and no check engine lights have come on to my knowledge or I am certain he would have informed me.

These plugs are made for this car. I went to their website and put my car information in and every part that they make and is available for this car came up. I chose the Bosch 4508 model.

These plugs are $10 a piece anywhere else but Walmart has them at $10 for 2. I would say that these are expensive plugs and you are not saving extra cash with this route.

http://www.boschautoparts.com/auto

Spark Plugs


Iridium Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Do Not Gap, Gap is Preset

Part Number: 9604

Double Platinum Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Original equipment is double platinum

Part Number: 8112

Platinum Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Part Number: 6719

Super Plus Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Gap 0.044 in, Original Equipment Is Platinum

Part Number: 7962

Platinum Ir Fusion Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Do Not Gap, Gap is Preset, Original Equipment Is Platinum

Part Number: 4508

Platinum+4 Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Do Not Gap, Gap is Preset, Original Equipment Is Platinum

Part Number: 4428

Platinum+2 Spark Plugs
Engine Designation: D17A1,D17A2,D17A6

Installation Restrictions: Do Not Gap, Gap is Preset, Original Equipment Is Platinum

Part Number: 4308

I also have been using Bosch O2 sensors without issue on the D15B6 OBD0 for about 10 years now. I will research these claims in the future. Thank you for sharing your experience with me.

ezone

This tool installs Bosch plugs with incredible speed and accuracy:



directly into the dumpster, from 20 paces.

Bosch O2 sensors will also fit in this tool if you cut the wires off first.

bsmiley

I think if the OP searches this forum with keywords and reads the posts he will see others have had issues with bosch plugs & sensors.

You & the OP are free to do as you wish concerning flywheel resurface. My Civic will be running great, getting 35mpg no matter what you do.

But personally I think you need to stay away from caffine and people that don't share your opinions. You keep asking for proof but provide only your limited personal experiences as your "proof". Take a course in statistics and you may discover there is a problem with your sample size.

ezone

^Well said^


I've always had great luck just slapping a new clutch on without touching the flywheel, if the flywheel is in good shape.

OptimisticWay

Let's try logic instead. If Bosch made inferior products, especially when it comes to Honda and it was well known and understood by the majority of the those in the field, then there would be a class action lawsuit against Bosch. You don't think there is a lawyer out there that wants to make a name for himself, get paid millions, & sue somebody, anybody?

Are you slandering Bosch because they are German products and you think only Japanese parts will work in Japanese cars?

bsmiley

Slander, lawsuits? Still chugging redbull & defending Bosch?
Have a good night!

OptimisticWay

cja3455

That's some very good compression on a d17a2, no wonder why these small engines keep blowing their head gaskets! is that wet or dry ?
I wouldn't use that type of brake fluid on Hondas, only use Honda fluid as it has the proper additives for the system
Regarding the sensor , using bosh upstream sensor on some 7th gen civic is problematic; however on the 05 em2 is totally fine, I had one on my old em2 and it didn't give me any problems

OptimisticWay

It was dry. You bring up a good point though, I paused the recording in order to eliminate dead air when I should have just let it run in order to eliminate any doubt as to whether a few drops of oil were dropped into the cylinders to raise the compression. I will definitely keep recording the entire time. But, there is no evidence to prove that oil was not placed in prior to the filming. I suppose I would have to have the engine running when I begin filming and then start the compression test.

The engine was stone cold and should have been warmed up to operating temp for a proper and accurate compression test. This was sufficient for what I wanted to know. I did not want to fill my shop up with CO.

My 88 HF had around 240 dry and cold with 156k miles twelve years ago. Compression in that engine is 9.1:1 and this engine has 9.9:1 so I would have expected it to be higher.

OptimisticWay

Resurfacing Flywheels

By Larry Carley

There comes a time in the life of every flywheel when it needs to be resurfaced. That time is usually when the clutch is replaced. Normal clutch operation generates a lot of friction and heat. The mass of the flywheel absorbs and dissipates the heat. If the clutch is starting to slip, even more heat is generated. The added thermal stress can cause heat cracks, warpage and the formation of hard spots in the surface of the flywheel.

When the old clutch is removed, the flywheel should always be carefully inspected to determine its condition. This includes measuring the flatness of the flywheel with a straightedge and feeler gauge, and inspect the surface for cracks, grooving or hard spots (discolored areas that are slightly raised above the surrounding surface).

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Some specifications allow a maximum runout of up to .0005 inch per inch of flywheel diameter. But according to some experts, more than .002 inches of runout on a typical passenger car flywheel may cause chatter and vibration problems. More than .005 inches of runout increases the risk of severe vibrations that may cause the clutch to fail. Flatter is always better.

Of course, if the surface of the flywheel is flat and free from defects, there’s no need to resurface it. But if it isn’t in like-new condition, the flywheel should be resurfaced before the replacement clutch is installed.

If a worn flywheel is not resurfaced, the replacement clutch won’t last. Your customer will likely be back with a failed clutch disc demanding warranty satisfaction. Most clutch suppliers will not honor such a warranty claim if the flywheel was not resurfaced (or was resurfaced incorrectly) when the clutch was installed. Installing a new clutch disc on a worn or warped surface is asking for trouble, yet all too often the flywheel isn’t resurfaced to save time or money. It’s a big mistake that can end up costing a customer a lot more in the long run.

If a flywheel is found to be damaged (cracks that are more than surface deep, or cracks around the crankshaft bolt holes), replacement is required. A cracked flywheel can explode with tremendous force, so under no circumstances should anybody take a chance if the flywheel is at all questionable.

On many flywheels, the starter ring gear is a separate component that is pressed on — and can be replaced if any of the teeth are damaged. If the teeth are part of the flywheel itself and are damaged, a new flywheel should be installed to eliminate any possible cranking problems.

If a flywheel needs to be resurfaced or replaced, its index position with respect to the crankshaft should be clearly marked prior to removal to maintain proper engine balance. This step is critical with engines that are "externally" balanced (those that don’t have large flywheel counterweights and rely on the balance of the flywheel to minimize vibrations).

DUAL-MASS FLYWHEELS
With dual-mass flywheels, resurfacing is not recommended on BMW, General Motors or Porsche. If a dual-mass flywheel on one of these vehicles is worn, it must be replaced.

On Ford applications, a dual-mass flywheel can be resurfaced by removing the bolts and separating the primary and secondary flywheels. Ford recommends using new bolts when the flywheel is reassembled.

Conventional one-piece flywheels are available to replace the more expensive dual-mass flywheels on some applications such as 7.3L Ford and 6.5L GM diesel trucks. The solid flywheels do not use the same clutch as the original, and some are designed for a larger diameter clutch to beef up the torque capacity of the drivetrain. A solid flywheel won’t provide the same smoothness or vibration dampening characteristics of a dual-mass flywheel, but they are more reliable and affordable.

RESURFACING TECHNIQUES
Flywheels can be resurfaced two ways: by cutting or grinding. Cutting is usually done on a brake lathe. Setting up a flywheel on a lathe takes times and must be done carefully to make sure the flywheel turns true on the lathe. One drawback with cutting is that a lathe bit tends to skip over hard spots, leaving uneven areas.

The alternative is to remove a greater amount of metal, which may have an adverse effect on installed clutch height. On vehicles with hydraulic linkages, the release bearing may have limited travel. If too much metal is removed from the flywheel, the clutch may not fully release if the hydraulic linkage is at the limit of its travel.

Grinding is the preferred method for resurfacing most flywheels today. Grinding can be done on a head and block grinding machine, or a dedicated flywheel grinder. Grinding equipment designed for heads and blocks, though, can only handle flat flywheels and takes longer to setup than a dedicated flywheel grinder. If a stepped or recessed flywheel needs to be ground, a dedicated flywheel grinder designed for this purpose must be used.

On applications where a stepped flywheel is used (Honda and VW, for example), equal amounts of metal must be shaved off of both surfaces to maintain the proper clutch height and pressure. In other words, if .010 is removed from the lower step, .010 must also be removed from the upper step to maintain the same relationship. This requires using a flywheel depth gauge to measure the amount of recess before and after resurfacing.

A dedicated flywheel grinder with an overhead stone rotates the flywheel while it is being ground to achieve the required flatness with minimal metal removal. A grinder will remove hard spots and leave a smooth, homogeneous surface. Grinding time is typically three to four minutes. The flywheel is mounted using the crankshaft flange as a reference point, and custom adapters or centering cones can be used to center a recessed flywheel.

The proper surface finish can be achieved by wet grinding with silicone carbide stones or dry grinding with CBN stones (the latter are more expensive, but longer lived). Softer stones are recommended for grinding forged steel flywheels, while hard stones work best on cast iron flywheels. Using the proper coolant is important for long stone life and good cutting action. Water-based coolants should also contain a rust inhibitor to prevent rust spots from forming on a resurfaced flywheel.

When a recessed flywheel is ground, the stones leave a radius on the corner of the clutch cover mounting surface, whether the step is internal or external. This radius should be removed so the clutch pressure plate will match up squarely when it is installed.

http://www.clubcivic.com/forum/threa...rfacing.77471/

OptimisticWay

If it passes all these check points, then yes it is okay to not resurface the flywheel.

"When the old clutch is removed, the flywheel should always be carefully inspected to determine its condition. This includes measuring the flatness of the flywheel with a straightedge and feeler gauge, and inspect the surface for cracks, grooving or hard spots (discolored areas that are slightly raised above the surrounding surface)."

Of course, if the surface of the flywheel is flat and free from defects, there’s no need to resurface it. But if it isn’t in like-new condition, the flywheel should be resurfaced before the replacement clutch is installed.

"If a worn flywheel is not resurfaced, the replacement clutch won’t last. Your customer will likely be back with a failed clutch disc demanding warranty satisfaction. Most clutch suppliers will not honor such a warranty claim if the flywheel was not resurfaced (or was resurfaced incorrectly) when the clutch was installed. Installing a new clutch disc on a worn or warped surface is asking for trouble, yet all too often the flywheel isn’t resurfaced to save time or money. It’s a big mistake that can end up costing a customer a lot more in the long run."

http://www.clubcivic.com/forum/threa...rfacing.77471/

mcnoople

I ask this question in regard to the inferior products statement. How do chain parts stores get away with selling inferior low quality parts without lawsuits? How long do any parts store balljoint/bushings last in comparision to factory units? Suspension components are a safety item and the aftermarket has a dismal track record in making quality suspension parts.

$10 isn't really an expensive plug, I have seen some OE plugs list prices as high as $25 per plug. The reason walmart can sell them for $5 is that fact that they only cost the store $2. The parts stores strongly promote bosch products because of a low cost with high list price= high profit margin.

OptimisticWay

Compression Test Results :

215 psi Cylinder 1
220 psi Cylinder 2
210 psi Cylinder 3
210 psi Cylinder 4

Engine stone cold and dry (no oil on top of the cylinders)

OptimisticWay

Based upon the previous discussion about resurfacing the flywheel, replacing it, or keeping it as is I decided to research if any aftermarket parts have become available in the last 2½ years since the last clutch job I performed on a 7th generation Civic. This is what I found from most expensive to cheapest:

$243.70
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/g...hTerm=flywheel

$197.82 plus ~$15 S&H
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...RQUE+CONVERTER

$134.00
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Re...032%2b2032006#

$94.99
http://www.autozone.com/drivetrain/f...hc/302407_0_0/

This last one from AutoZone looks like a winner. No flywheel was available for under $200 2½ years ago or I would have chosen this option. To have the flywheel resurfaced it would cost about $50. I will use code "WASH20" to get $20 off $100 purchase making the flywheel $80 plus tax. I will buy a Bosch oil filter to bring me up to $100.

http://www.autozone.com/external-eng...190553_0_3976/

A special thanks to bsmiley for bringing this to my attention. For an extra $30-$40 I will go with a new flywheel.

OptimisticWay

Qty Product Unit Price Item Total
For your 2005 Honda Civic EX 1.7L MFI SOHC 4cyl
1
Bosch/Oil Filter
Part Number: 3323
Availability: Ships within 1-2 business days.
Notes: Premium
$6.99
SAVINGS APPLIED
$6.99
1
Brute Power/Flywheel - Manual Transmission
Part Number: FW2765
Availability: Ships within 1-2 business days.
Warranty: 3 MO
$94.99
SAVINGS APPLIED
$94.99
Total charges for this portion of your order:
SUBTOTAL:
$101.98
Save 20% PLUS Get $10 AutoZone Gift Card for Ship to Home Orders of $100 or More. :
-$20.40
Free shipping on $75 or more orders
$0.00
TAXES:
$5.71
TOTAL:
$87.29

OptimisticWay

OptimisticWay