stereobumps

2002 Civic LX 1.7. 127,000 miles plugs have never been replaced. Any known issues of the threads being seized after this long? Any input appreciated.

mikey1

just make sure the engine is cool/cold when you remove them

ezone

The biggest problems seem to happen after someone didn't install them tight enough.

MN-02-CivicEx

My 02 CivEx has 124K with original plugs. Tried everything, but wasn't able to remove the middle two seized plugs. Plugs are original Denso long life platinums. Will not chance stripping aluminum threads so as long as engine purrs with these plugs will leave well enough alone. The time will eventually come when i'll have to remove them one way or another and install M14 x 1.25 x 16.8mm "Time-Sert" inserts as the aluminum threads will most likely be stripped when forcefully removing the two seized plugs.

If any of your plugs are seized spray JB80, BP Plaster or WD40 into the SP Tube and let it sit overnight. If any still won't turn CCW, try tightening the seized plug CW just a tad (1/16 turn) to see if it will even budge. If so, then try backing it 1/8 turn CCW. Keep working it back and forth and hopefully you'll be able to eventually turn it CCW 1 full turn and by then you should be able to unscrew it all the way. If it gets really hard to turn CCW then turn it CW again and back and forth until it's out. May have to give it a couple more squirts of penetrating lubricant as your turning it CCW, CW and CCW as you back it out.

Let's us know how it goes.

drhawkinz

Liquid wrench works pretty good as well.

MN-02-CivicEx

Should have mentioned that the 02 CivEx had 123.5 miles when purchased. If i'd known that the two middle plugs were seized to the point of not coming out i wouldn't have paid their asking price which at the time was reasonable.

Never thought when taking it for a test drive to take along my ratchet with spark plug socket

Even if I would've taken it to my mechanic to check it out before buying who would've thought of pulling the ignition coils to see if any the plugs were seized.

pjb3

WD40 is not a penetrating oil even if it is often used for that. I mention this because most people have it sitting around and it works in a lot of cases. If you have a seized spark plug I would use JB 80, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, Kroil or any other true penetrating oil. It may not seem like a big difference but it may be the difference between getting the plug out or not.

MN-02-CivicEx

I meant to say Liquid Wrench, not WD40 ... a senior moment.

The engine (just turned 125K) doesn't use any oil and the two plugs (1&4) i was able to remove were clean (no carbon or oil deposits of any significance). So, as far as my situation will leave well enough alone and not forcefully remove the two stuborn plugs until misfiring of either #1 or #4 plug. Will be interesting to see just how "long" these Platinum Long Life Denso plugs will last before they will have to be forcefully removed.

MN-02-CivicEx

Does the threaded opening in an Aluminum head contract (enlarge its opening) moreso relative to any contraction (reduction in size) of the threaded Spark Plug when the temperature is -20 F (frigid Minnesota winter) or when the engine is hot at say 180 F ???

I had been under the impression that the correct answer is when the engine is hot, but a Honda mechanic told me its cold that the threaded opening contracts (enlarges its opening) and likewise any contraction (reduces its dia) in the size of the spark plug would also be when cold. The Honda mechanic suggested using a product like Dr. Scholl's Freeze Away Wart Remover or wait until a really cold winter day to have better success removing my seized Spark Plug.

Is there some other variable that for whatever reason supposedly makes the removal of a seized SP easier to remove when the engine is warmer than when it is cold?

ezone

A metallurgist will probably say different.....the concept can be hard to wrap ones head around.
I'm not sure I agree, but here's how I understand it:


The size of the hole will be smaller when the head is cold.
Heat will make the hole bigger.

Localized concentrated heating might cause the hole to get smaller, but at an overall even temperature it would not.

I think the bigger issue is that dissimilar metals expand and contract at different rates at any given temperature (aluminum vs steel)


It's already seized, try whatever methods you can think of. If it's gonna rip out threads, I think it's gonna do it no matter what you try.

I think it's much more convenient to rip out threads while it's warm outside rather than in frigid cold. LOL

MN-02-CivicEx

I can tell you that the engine was still warm when I was pleasantly surprised yesterday when one of the stubborn plugs came out as if it had never been seized. The determining factor may not be the temperature of the engine as much that the PB Penetrating lubricant around the seized spark plug finally did the job with the alternating heating and cooling of the engine over the past 3-4 weeks.

Remember me telling about the two middle plugs that were seized to the point that I wasn't able to break loose one of them at all and the other one no more than 1/4 turn (without stripping the aluminum threads or shearing the plug) by going back and forth using a 15" breaker bar on the spark plug socket with considerable torque.

And that was with several applications of PB B'laster Penetrating Catalyst done over a few days giving it plenty of time to penetrate. If you remember I had tried working the plug back and forth with the aluminum head both cold and with the engine warm, but not hot. The most I was able to move one of the two seized plugs was 1/4 turn and the other seized plug wouldn't budge at all.

Yesterday, I decided to try again. To my surprise the plug that had only relented 1/4 turn now came out as if it had never been seized. Actually for 125K this original Denso long life platinum plug looked good (no carbon deposits) thanks to the Honda engine.

Today I tried to see if I could break loose the other middle seized plug that I wasn't able to budge at all even after a few good soakings in PB 3-4 weeks ago. This time was able to move it CCW and CW no more than 1/16 (if that much) going back and forth only two times and then it wouldn't budge at all. However, in the process i did manage to break my 30yr old spark plug socket. Anyway, the unrelenting spark plug didn't shear off and is soaking overnight in PB B'laster Penetrating Catalyst.

Going to give it a week and then try again to see if it will budge 1/4 turn CCW/CW. Hopefully, the next time i try it will relent at least 1/8 turn CCW/CW back and forth. Hopefully in another month it will surprise me by coming out as if it was never seized. Even if it doesn't who's to say that these original Denso plugs may be good for at least 150K.

As long as the engine purrs and gas mileage is 39 mpg highway cruising i'm in no hurry to change these Denso plugs now that three of them have been inspected, cleaned and reinstalled with spark plug anti-seize.

RIPSAW

No problem, Replaced 2007 Civic and 2005 CRV in last year. Not even sure why they say do it. I used my longer 3/8 breaker bar on the socket..Not the shorter ratchet. They do make a pretty loud crack when they loosen but immediately are loose with no drag. So they probably were not seized. You probably just didn't put enough umph in it. I know that filling however.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for updates !!

PB is wild stuff, and may get the job done.

MN-02-CivicEx

A 15" breaker bar with as much umph as loosening a tight lug nut is not enuf umph? Any more umphhh and i'd either strip the aluminum threads or shear the Spark Plug in half. Attached is a photo of the Spark Plug socket that made a loud crack when it broke. Thankfully the socket broke and not the SP. It will eventually loosen ... i'm in no hurry. In fact I'll keep using the original Denso Platinum Long Life plugs as long as the engine keeps on purring, accelerating with smooth steady power and great gas mileage. For all we know an Ignition Coil may need to be replaced before the Spark Plugs. If the engine's performance is still AOK at 150K i'll keep using the original plugs until one of the Denso plugs starts to misbehave.

IMO most Motorheads are generally too obsessed with changing out Spark Plugs (that don't need replacing) for the latest trend (e.g. Ngk Iridiums). Some probably change perfectly good plugs before 100K ... we just can't keep our fingers off the engine. So, call me a killjoy

pjb3

Ezone is correct. The coefficient of expansion for aluminum is around twice that of steel so basically as the engine heats up the aluminum is expanding faster than the steel. Heat makes the hole and the spark plug bigger, the hole just gets bigger faster.

RIPSAW

Draw it out on paper and you will realize we're not talking about a plan female hole and a plan male plug but 60 degree flank angles of threads. As the flank angle of the aluminum grows outward (together) , it does exert more hold on the flank of the steel plug that is going the same way. However, we need to keep this in perspective. It's so darn little, it truly makes little difference. Sort of like politicians harping on the danger of a nut with a 15 round clip being more than a nut with two 10 round clips. I see no where in my CRV or Civic service manuals that it says either way. It does on some cars and it is in the manual of my 2004 Harley to be cool. Probably just because it's safer to work on that way.

MN-02-CivicEx

When an Aluminum head is heated uniformly across its area... the metal near the outer circumference, tries to expand outward because of resistance from its neighboring molecules. Similarly, the area that is along the circumference of the Spark Plug hole tends to expand to its free side, thereby everso minutely decreasing the circumference (as well as the diameter) of the threaded Spark Plug hole.

That's possibly one reason that contributes to why the threads are more easily stripped when attempting to remove a seized Spark Plug from a warm-hot aluminum head compared to attempting to remove a seized plug at -20 F on a frigid winter day or using liguid nitrogen

Now some would argue the opposite using these three examples to bolster their position.

1) A nut is very tight on a screw. Which of the following is most likely to free it? Cooling it, heating it, either, or neither?
2) If you heat your gold wedding ring will the inner circumference increase in size or decrease in size?
3) When an axle gets stuck in a ball bearing, one way to pull it out is to heat up the bearing with a welding torch.

Agree that there are other factors at work here that are more important than the temperature coefficient expansion or contraction differences between an aluminum head and a steel Spark Plug. So we both agree on one thing (maybe) ... "It's so darn little, it truly makes little difference."

MN-02-CivicEx

YES, Ezone is correct! The Honda Mechanic that suggested an application of: Dr. Scholl's Freeze Away Wart Remover, would NOT be helpful as the circumference/diameter of the aluminum hole would shrink more than the circumference/diameter of the steel Spark Plug.

The problem with the above rationale is that the aluminum would also try to expand along the threaded ring, and if it moves inward, it has less space for the molecules to expand. Therefore the molecules have to move outwards along the circumference of the threaded hole in which case the circumference/diameter of the threaded hole would increase in size, not shrink.

If aluminum didn't become more malleable when heated (threads more easily stripped) the removal of a seized Spark Plug should be attempted when the engine is HOT and not cold. The next thing i'm trying is putting the SP socket over the plug and giving a sharp tapping with a hammer on the SP socket a few times when the engine is HOT, followed by an application of PB Penetrating Catalyst around the Spark Plug. Doing this routine every 2-3 days over the next few weeks should hopefully result in this stubbornly seized SP finally relenting.

ezone

I still say it's much more convenient to strip the threads out while the weather is nice.

MN-02-CivicEx

If it was a Ford Triton engine chances are at least one plug would have been blown out long before 125,000 miles ... talk about ejection convenience

A thirty dollar HeliCoil kit can do the trick if installed correctly with a good loctite compound installed on the threads of the repair insert. A relatively simple thing to fix. If only Honda had engineers as sharp as Ford's for customer convenience.

ezone

Some shops that know about those plug problems have no problem charging for exactly what it takes to deal with the poorly engineered crap. A basic service like replacing the set of plugs on the 3 valve engines might get billed at 8 hours of labor if that's what it takes.


Hondas' issues pale in comparison to many other manufacturers' problems IMO. People just don't realize how good these cars are.

Quote:

as sharp as Ford's for customer convenience.

I think you could use the term 'damage control' here.

If you are having to put out fires all the time, would it not make sense to get rid of the pyromaniacs?

Ever notice that most of Fords recalls involved vehicles catching fire?



Q-What's the natural state of a Ford?
A-Upside down and on fire.

Q- What's the last thing they do to every vehicle on the Ford assembly line?
A- Put the fire outand turn it right side up.





There was a wreck on the street in front of our dealership a while back.
A late 90s Grand Prix had its nose out past the white stop line and into traffic.....A Ford Explorer clipped the front bumper of the Grand Prix and just lost it. The Explorer was literally on its' roof with glass all over the place, and the driver crawled out a window all banged up and covered in blood. (no fire though)
The driver of the Grand Prix tossed his plastic bumper cover in the back of the car and drove away.

MN-02-CivicEx

Thought your previous reply may have had a tinge of facetious impatience ... so thus my tit-for-tat reply thinking you were not serious or a little frustrated (tongue-in-cheek) that i hadn't yet removed the one remaining stubborn plug, one way or another. Didn't expect you to actually give much thought to my tit-for-tat reply ... seriously!

Because the other stubborn middle plug finally relented all by itself after a few soakings with PB and being able to at least break it loose (if only 1/4 turn) am still hopeful the other stubborn plug will do likewise.

However, this stubborn plug is even more stubborn having only been able to break it loose 1/16 turn so far. Because PB Penetrating Catalyst is considered by some to be just as good if not better than Kroil Oil am still holding out hope that it will eventually relent.

You may disagree, but periodic soakings with BP and wrestling with its head hold shouldn't make its seizure worse, if anything the opposite as was the case with the other stubborn plug seizure that finally relented after a few weeks with periodic soakings of BP having been able to first free it at least 1/4 turn.

These plugs may be good for 150K so unlike many motorhead mechanics i see no need to rush the seizure by prematurely stripping the aluminum threads in the event the original Denso Long Life Platinum SP finally relents sometime between 125K-150K.

I look at this dilemma as more of a longer timeline research experiment than a "just get the damn plug out and be done with it" mindset. Have two cars ... probably no more than 4,000 miles on the Honda before the weather is nice again next year.

mikey1

meh.....if it was me, i would put an 18 inch breaker bar on it, slip my 6 foot steel pipe over the breaker bar, give her hell and hope for the best

ezone

Nah, I was just thinking of your comment about waiting until it's about -20* out to try breaking it loose, and thought "working in the cold sucks donkey ba!!s".

MN-02-CivicEx

The sheer strength of the Denso SP (although not too shabby) doesn't come anywhere close
to that of the Harmonic Balancer Crank Bolt.

IF only you were my next door neighbor

MN-02-CivicEx

Certainly you remember that we had already decided that the chances of it relenting is better when the aluminum head is warm than -20. With another tinge of facetious impatience you'll be pretty close to ... "putting an 18 inch breaker bar on it, slip your 6 ft steel pipe over the breaker bar, give her hell and hope for the best ... ."

mikey1

just do a little bit of this

then go out and giver hell

ezone

I think you guys decided that without me LOL

MN-02-CivicEx

MN-02-CivicEx

What difference does it really make IF in the process the aluminum threads are stripped anyway? Trying to remove a really stubborn seized plug when it's cool/cold increases the chances that the steel plug might actually shear in half ... OR ... is it your own experience that the aluminum threads will ALWAYS give way (strip) before a steel plug will shear in half no matter whether the engine is cold or hot ??

With the engine warm/hot is there less chance a steel plug would shear shear in half? IF it's seized so tight the odds may be that what's left of the sheared plug in the head doesn't come out with an Easy-Out. In which case the head would have to be removed. Because a Honda plug is hard to get at the head would most likely have to be removed in order to remove a sheared/broken plug.

IF invariably the end result is that the threads are stripped one way or another so then WHY not remove the plug when the engine is warm/hot with just an 18" Breaker Bar (without the 6' metal pipe extension)