siliconvalley

Hi All, I am going to have my HG replaced this week with an OEM one from the dealer. My question is, when do I expect the new HG fail? Does it last 100k miles?

Thanks

ezone

I bet it will last until it blows or overheats for whatever reason. Overheating can damage any otherwise bulletproof engine.


I don't think I have ever had to do a second head gasket on one......but IDK.
I'd expect it should last at least as long as the original if done correctly, barring some other unexpected event.

siliconvalley

Thanks, Ezone. If next time it overheats due to a leak radiator hose, etc, I will stop it right away and don't let the temperature needle touch the red.

ezone

Damage can still happen even without the needle getting into the red.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

if done right, using good parts, should last the same as before or longer. I did only once, far from getting same mileage, so no idea.

kinakoes2

It's rare cars last 20 years anymore, unless it's a truck. And even then, they get replaced long before the ten yr mark anyway (my '92 Paseo almost made it, getting sold at 19 yrs with 280K on its factory clutch and trans and HG).

So it's no surprise Honda, wanting to take content out of their Civic for the first time, kinda cut too close to the quick with the D17 head... but I'd love to hear from any 2001 owners who bought their cars used w/ HG done at the 50 - 100K mark, and hear how long the new HG lasted (and if it was revision 002, 003, 004, etc.).

What really bugs me, is TTY head bolts remain a mystery find for this head, and would in all sane likelihood, banish this issue permanently. Just wish there was a parts cross-ref for another Honda that one could just order with the various pull list... but I'm bummed to know less those TTY bolts, this issue will just happen again -- and it could be in less time than this current one is holding out.

mikey1

this is kind of like asking how long the original HG will last

where is ezones crystal ball picture when i need it?

i am on my original HG at 280,000kms for what that is worth who knows?

kinakoes2

174000 miles, well within the *typical* range for having a second HG installed. I'm about 30K miles (48200 km) behind you, but have no idea if this HG in now is the original or the second one. If it's the second one... this HG lasted only a max of ~100K miles, and a minimum of 50K miles.

Damn you, D17 engineers... it was like, $5 per car, to spec TTY bolts, gentlemen.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

My original HG was good up until it got replaced at 175K miles and it wasn't replaced because it was bad. Typically they don't last that long.

Crystal ball guy

ezone

How long is a stick?

Some go, some don't.
I know of one 05 that had 250k on (AFAIK) the original gasket when it was sold off.
OTOH I've replaced them before 50k too.


I still don't know of any of mine being repeats.

kinakoes2

See that's the thing -- would you see them anyway, as a dealer tech?

When a car reaches the ten yr mark... they tend to be worn enough to not be taken to dealership service bays. I know on my side, we actually turned away bikes that were five years old or more -- it's effed up, I know... but in reality in Phx, rubber parts do not last very far past that point, and the big dealers I worked for knew that disturbing clamps on rubber carb intake boots and cracking seals that'd be reusable at that age just about anywhere else, would be crumbling to dust in the desert -- and since we were the last ones to touch it, we'd be liable for replacing what can be very rare/expensive/both sealing parts, as well as the labor to install them... and then there's actually sucessfully solving the issue it came in for.

So, if a 8yo 7th-gen came in for a HG, and it left... even if it lasted only half the mileage on that second HG... do you think you'd see a 12-yo Civic at a dealer? Perhaps more likely with a Civic vs. an Escort ... but I'd be surprised if the techs at a typical dealer even remembered what the issues were on a 7th-gen, much less how to knock a HG job out beating FR time.

Would love to be able to take my '04 EX to you, ezone... but the standard of service tech here is, shall we say... generously average and quite self-interested, at best.

ezone

They are getting rarer by the day, but they still roll in. 6th gens are an oddity now, but the other day we had 3 in the same day. Ya never know. This morning it looked like van day.


I'm know I'm not like most others, but I also know I'm not the only one in this industry that operates the way I do. We are few and far between, it seems.

Warminwisco

You guys are scaring me!! I just co signed for an 05 with 63k for my kid, what is the cost of a HG when it goes? Any precautions to keep the HG original as long as possible?

ezone

Don't be scurred! It's just a li'l ol' head gasket. Back in my day this was a routine service and nobody thought nuthin of it. Tune up every 5k. Valve job every 50k. Overhaul at 100k. .....

Of course, back then the life expectancy of a car was only 100,000 miles.



Cost? Depends on what it needs at the time. Depends on who does the work. Depends on the quality of the parts you buy. Depends on how well the work is done. Depends on how hot it got.


Could be a couple hundred at best if you DIY and all goes as planned. Toss in a timing belt and water pump and tensioner pulley, keep adding more dollars. Have someone else do the work and the price goes higher.
Head warped? Machine shop gets some cash too.

Whole bunch of variables here.
How long is a stick?




Do NOT buy a $48 timing kit with pulley and water pump from "Car Parts Wiz" on ebay!
If you didn't see it all last week, here's the thread https://www.civicforums.com/forums/36-mechanical-problems-vehicle-issues-fix-forum/359578-i-am-stuck-side-road-what-happened.html

LOL, HTH

kinakoes2

^ There aren't any reliable indicators for *when* they go... but the reason *why* they go at least is well-understood.

It has to do with the head bolts, which aren't up to keeping the multi-layer-steel (MLS) head gasket clamped correctly when the car reaches a certain age... and doubly so if the owner doesn't use the correct Type 2 coolant and maintains it at the correct level, encouraging overheating and head warpage. Even then, they sometimes still fail between 50K & 150K. Fluid filling the overflow tank is the most common symptom before it loses coolant level enough to warp the head.

Cost when it happens, will depend on if you have the tools/resources (like a competent machine shop used to working to Honda standards) to do a HG swap with a warped head, and how confident you are with such a job. Ezone could give you a better ballpark than I for the job... but I seem to remember something like 8 hrs FR? Assuming $100 - $125/hr, that's going to be a grand for labor.

When I got the valve cover off to replace the bad cover seal, I forgot to retorque the head bolts, as my '04 EX has the slow tank overflow problem (or had it up until two weeks ago). Now it seems to be consuming coolant... but level was scarcely below normal when I checked this AM. So I don't know for certain... but if the slowly-loosening head bolts are the cause for the failing gasket seal... then retorquing should help until they loosen again.

ezone

I don't do numbers. It's hard enough just fixing the cars sometimes.

Labor might start at around 4-5 hours in the labor guide.....

But once you start adding stuff to do a thorough job, it goes up: t-belt, w-pump, strip the head to send to the machine shop, they all require additional labor.

siliconvalley

Here are my costs:

. new parts from a Honda dealer: timing belt kits, water pump, HG kit, $350
. labor from my trusty mechanic: $750

Total: $1100. It's in northern CA(San Jose).

Sorry guys I know I should be frowned on for not doing it myself, but my projects are killing me. don't want to get fired

kinakoes2

Getting a good break on labor there... hope he's experienced, and that any head warpage is checked for, and corrected properly, if it exists.

I don't have anything against having competent dealer techs taking your money, if they do great work. It's just that some jobs can be easily done with minimal skill and a good set of tools and safety guidelines. A head gasket though... if a tech can get the job done correctly for a fair price... more power to them and you, as there's lots of opportunities for messing the job up far more expensively than $1100.

ezone

Agree, seems cheap for that area. Hell, that might still be cheap if it was in my area.



"Any clown with a shoebox full of tools has the exact same abilities and talents as the next clown with a shoebox full of tools."

kinakoes2

Yup. Tools don't make the tech. Sure makes flat rate easier to beat for a tech, though!

I like to look at the tools of a tech who claims to have a certain amount of exp. That says volumes about what kind of tech they are.

ezone

Someone asked how to remove a VTEC solenoid. I said I have an arsenal of strange, small 10mm tools to choose from....


Were you around to see this one?


12mm, for removing one of the nuts on a carb on a 12A Rotor Motor. Real handy for Hondas EGR valves now, among other things.

You've seen my main socket drawer, it looks like a wreck but I know where everything is. It's kinda been like that ever since I tried to set a DeVille on that drawer LOL. It was an accident, I swear.

Toolboxes don't make money either. I didn't spend 15k on a nice shiny big name railroad car sized toolbox.
I've got a stack of Craftsman Industrials from 1997 and a stack of Craftsman standards from...early/mid 80s I think. Couple of tool carts. If I have to, I can haul all of my stuff in my lowrider in several trips.... I don't have to call a rollback in to move them.

I DO want to get a double wide bottom box to use as a portable, I scan CL from time to time.

The older stack of boxes holds the less used stuff, and toys. A laptop stays in one drawer, CDs/DVDs/cassettes in another, my fabulous collection of stolen office supplies is in a couple other drawers, 10 LBS of pocket change in a drawer for poker games, a drawer with a half-brick of firecrackers and bottle rockets, there's time sheets, digital camera, diagnostic test parts and sensors, enough special tools to rebuild the trans and rear end in my lowrider.....stuff like that.

kinakoes2

Effin' sweet... I do like to see well-used, non-poseur-y tools in their natural state -- used often and not polished like jewelry. BTW... in the top pic I have all of those, except the center one (some of the access problems with motos do require lots of special tools... see Suzuki pre-'96). Seeing the little 10mm impact (for its deceptively-useful ball drive) made me grin like an idiot.

And that Mazda 12A special wrench is mighty-mighty trick. I'd have to troll some rotary forums for one someday. :P

If I had to do it all over again, I'd've saved the cash for the Snappie top and RA, and just gotten a Craftsman box, then filled it with my variety pack of tools. S-O boxes don't really justify their prices until they get to the point where you need a full-size pickup and a forklift just to move them... unless I'm full-time on a race team and a sponsor's picking up the tab I'll stick with the sizes (and prices) I have now. Though were I to have a long-term gig at a shop with good people in charge... I'd probably branch out like you did.

Ykc3590

just change my HG on my 02 engine cools down a bit used felpro OEM Gasket very good engine sound no more exhaust in water reservoir i think should be good for 200,000 km with no other issues like brken timing belt or water pump