NissanNismoZ

Okay..so the civic has slipped into 4th for a while now ONLY when its cold. Usually, when it slips when cold, it means you're a little low on tranny fluid, and i recall the PO saying he did a fluid change..so, today, i thought i'd take care of it.
Well, i (like a dummy in a hurry running late for work)
checked the tranny fluid not long after starting it up.
So of course, it would read a little low, so. I thought i'd add a little less than a half qt tranny fluid....
Well.
Its been fine all day, except now, it slipped in town pulling out into nearly every gear......
Then the check engine light came on and i knew i screwed up. Bad.
It was a 9mi drive home and once i hit that stop light..it wasnt accelerating anymore. just revved up.
So i let it cool and limp it a few more miles, to the store right before my house, where it sits now.
The last half or so mile i was running 6k rpm to maintain 20mph....
Is it screwed up? It was making some weird noises..but..im having a friend meet me and drain some out..but is it possible my tranny is now a goner? :/
thanks guys..im just sort of in panic mode..

mikey1

other than changing fluid, there is not really alot you can do without removing the tranny and ripping it apart,

do a fluid change with HONDA OEM FLUID! never use anything else!

check the fluid level with the tranny hot and the engine idling, keep it between the upper and lower marks....remember, overfilling is just as bad as underfilling

NissanNismoZ

Yeah..changed out tranny fluid..and its still where it was before i changed it..
It's 'okay' when its cold, but as soon as the tranny starts warming up, it starts slipping, then wont go anywhere. It's officially screwed..
Thanks for the reply, but, now it looks like im going to have to find someone to rebuild it. Since this transmission at least lasted 240k

NissanNismoZ

Is it worth thinking maybe since it was overfilled it may have broken down the fluid in it (making it foamy) and it just needs changed out now..?

ezone

Um, hold it. You have it wrong.
Misinformation.
RTFM.

Owners manual.
Random year picked: 2002 Civic Sedan.
Page 220.

Honda is the only manufacturer I know of that specifies to check the ATF with the engine OFF, and preferably check the ATF within one minute of turning the engine off.

I see tons of overfilled Honda transmissions because 99% of people don't know this.



Yup.




Cheers.

NissanNismoZ

Sorry about that, I was in panic mode and was freaking out..you know how people get when they freak out..
So, i cannot seem to get the drain plug off, so ill have to have a friend do it for me.
And since the nearest Honda dealership is over 80mi away..is the Castrol Import ATF fluid okay?
Also, I'm thinking this fluid i added to it, could have mis-matched with the (Maybe the OEM HONDA fluid) fluid that was previously in it.
So, what i'm asking is, this Castrol Import ATF (says it works with most Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas)
Thanks, I know that Honda prefers their own fluid, i just want to know if it's required and worth saving going 160mi round trip for tranny fluid.
Thanks guys. I really, really appreciate the replies.

ezone

Get all your supplies rounded up BEFORE you take it apart! Also, make sure you have a funnel that will reach the dipstick hole BEFORE you need it!

I use a real short extension, pound it into the square hole if necessary to make certain it is fully seated, then I use a 2 foot long breaker bar with a quick snap action to break it loose.
I have seen the plug cause broken ratchets and square drives.


I can't comment on the non-OE approved ATF other than I would not do it.
I DO know that there have been many instances of "strange" trans related complaints that were traced directly to incorrect trans fluid.
Maybe you can have someone ship it to you.



From your owners manual, (p220 in a 02 Civic Sedan)
Always use Honda ATF-Z1 <-----ATF DW-1 is the only acceptable factory fluid now. Z-1 is obsolete.
(Automatic Transmission Fluid). If
it is not available, you may use a
DEXRON III automatic
transmission fluid as a temporary
replacement.
However, continued
use can affect shift quality. Have
the transmission flushed and
refilled with Honda ATF-Z1 as
soon as it is convenient.
To thoroughly flush the
transmission, the technician
should drain and refill it with
Honda ATF-Z1, then drive the
vehicle a short distance. Do this
three times. Then drain and refill
the transmission a final time.


A quart of Dexron is plenty enough to make then shift funny. A thorough flush to get it out later is gonna be a bit of money, so it would be smarter to just do it the right way the first time.

Fluids are engineered for specific applications these days.
There is no universal fluid IMO. Wrong fluid with a bottle of additives/modifiers is still the wrong fluid.
Factory fluid is not cheap.

Your trans will hold a bit less than 3 quarts for each drain and fill. (Assuming it's a 7th gen.)

NissanNismoZ

Alright, again, I want to say THANK you!
Looks like it's worth the drive there for the fluid..
It sounds like there may still be hope, like as if the fluid didn't mix too well with the OEM honda fluid in there already from the PO.
Considering (i've only tried it once, to get it home) it drives normal until it warms up.
Maybe theres still hope!!
Thank you very much.
I'll be heading to the Honda dealership tomorrow to pick up the fluid, looks like i'll need 6qts to do a flush..just so that stuffs out of there.

ezone

6q will only let you drain and fill twice.
That's not what the owners manual said.
The total according to the owners manual was 4 times.


Here's the bulletin on what Honda says about flushing the trans fluid, FYI:


Note: Z-1 has now been replaced by DW-1.

========================
======================
====================
==================

I have a reading comprehension problem. I think I must have totally blown past your first post with all the important info in it.

Other issues I see:

The story here just goes downhill. Not good.

Wrong fluid normally causes small issues with shift timing and feel (due to friction properties and clutch engagement), not all-out slipping and going to neutral while driving.

What code is in the computer for the check engine light? Could be important info.

You could have done serious damage by continuing to drive while the trans was in a state of broken/slipping.
The car already has 240k on it, the trans could simply be worn out and due for replacement. You already said it had been slipping for quite a while in the OP.
(From your description though, it really sounds like it is toast. Sorry.)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't expect any miracles from flushing the trans fluid when the trans might really need an overhaul/replacement.
If it helps, then "great!", but if not then it was already broken and needed serious help anyway.

I'm not holding my breath.

NissanNismoZ

I suppose I'll try flushing it the recommended 4 times, just so that non-OEM stuff is out.
I'm really going to try my hardest to save this transmission, thought, I have heard, Honda had a bad time with these trannies.
And the code stored (as soon as the CEL came on I was right before an advanced, so I had them check it)
P0730 INCORRECT GEAR RATIO
which, of course, tells me, HEY! The trans is slipping!
But..as bad as I hated to drive it like that, I had to get it off the one lane bridge (at 6K RPM at 20MPH), I wasnt about to leave it in the middle of the bridge and hold up traffic.
They're redoing bridge walls around here and it's all one lane with traffic lights that tell each side when it's safe to drive through..
There's no way I would have left it in the middle of that. So yes, i fear that I may have ruined it..
But, again when I went back out to it
to see if it would limp home, it drove fine until it was warmed up and i let off the gas and it tried to shift, and it slipped. BUT. Once it was in gear, it would usually hold its gear, until it went to shift, then that's when i'd barely be going enough to maintain 20mph
Again, I'm going to try and flush out the fluid and hope it fixes it.
I bolded everything i feel is important to this matter so it doesn't seem like I'm rambling and may be easier to understand.
Again, thank you VERY much for the replies and working with me on this, I'm really appreciative of it.

ezone

You may have described a blocked sump: Debris from worn clutches sits below the internal filter and gets sucked up when fluid starts moving fast, thereby clogging the screen and blocking off (starving) the pump.
Slippage gets worse due to low hydraulic pressure, then "goes to neutral" when the pump can no longer build pressure and cant apply the clutches.

Shut it off and wait a few minutes for the debris to drop away from the filter, now the pump works again for a short while and the trans will pull again when you start it back up.
Until the debris gets sucked up again. Repeat the process to limp it home.

At the shop we call this a "code of death". If we find this code and the trans has been acting wrong, it gets a trans job.



Good luck, I hope it goes well for you.
But don't hate me if I'm right.

palsana

wouldn't a transmission fluid exchange be just better at 240k mi for the OP.
Why would one suggest a complete flush/evacuation of old tranny fluid. well, i do have minor slippage in my 2003 civic ex tranny, i am wondering if i should also get a thorough flush at this time. I have 192k mi right now. I rebuilt tranny at 178000.

ezone

Not if it is too late to save it. We'll find out if it was too late after OP does the work.
Because of wrong fluid, according to previous posts---and the owners manual info.

NissanNismoZ

Okay..so. Since it'll at LEAST be tomorrow before Honda is even open..So.
I decided to mess with it a little more, since I really miss it. and noticed it's reading over full COLD. Which, fluid expands when hot, so that means its gotta still be way over full when hot.
I checked it the RIGHT way (thanks to you guys!!!)
Let it warm up, let it go through all the gears, and it did, a little closer to normal..then turned it off and checked the fluid and.. it was reading off the dipstick, full.
So I took some out with my siphon hose and ended up making it a little lower than the hashmarks on the dipstick.
But, now, I thought i'd test drive it since I got it to where it wasn't full.
It shifted a little slowly, and seemed to slam into gear, but it was holding its own.
I put it in 2nd so it would stay in 2nd and not shift and put it to the floor, and no slipping, just flat out power.

This little bit gave me faith in it again. I'm definitely going tomorrow to get the fluid and I'll post back with results.
Now it only slips when shifting, then slams into gear.



Again, thanks everyone for the help with this, I really appreciate it, I just wanted to post back and give more info on how it's acting...

ezone

Just an FYI on this, the trans fluid takes much longer to warm up than the engine. The trans can still be quite cool even though the engine temp gauge shows in the middle.

When you pull the trans dipstick, feel the temp of the fluid with your fingers. Looking for above 160*F for operating temp.

A 10-20 mile drive should get the trans up to operating temp if you really want to check it right....

When I do a fluid change, the car has usually been sitting in the shop for a while and is cooled off.
I usually try to leave the fluid at the bottom of the marks if the fluid is cold, that way it ends up close to correct when hot. (I don't have time to drive it that far!)
This can vary with how hot the fluid feels to me too.

There is some room for error too, but way too much is just way too much.

HTH

mikey1

i have checked my fluid level both ways, and i dont think it makes a difference,

i drive the car for a good 20 mins, stop and check it idling, then shut it off and check it again....the reading is exactly the same,



..

ezone

Is your owners manual different from everyone elses?

NissanNismoZ

Alright, went to the Stealership out of town and got 6qts and a crush washer for close to 80$...OUCH.
Couldnt get more as that really put me in the hole..So, I'm going to hope this works out, now I have to have a friend help me break that sucker loose, because I can NOT get the drain plug loose!

ezone

That's sounding high for USA, I show 8.23 McDoubles per quart MSRP.

Check these discount prices google search showed:

http://www.amazon.com/Honda-Genuine-Automatic-Transmission-Fluid/dp/B006YTQR4E

http://www.handa-accessories.com/atfdw1.html



I use a 2 foot long breaker bar on the drainplug to get it loose.

mikey1

i guess it must be,

it says to check it with the engine idling in park

ezone

You are in Canuckia(?) but your cars are not THAT different.

If you were in Australia I'd expect the dipstick to be on the bottom of the car.



05 US sedan owners manual, page 159:
Check the fluid level with the engine
at normal operating temperature.
Park the vehicle on level ground.
Shut off the engine.
Bla, bla, bla.

05 US Coupe, p165
Check the fluid level with the engine
at normal operating temperature.
Park the vehicle on level ground.
Shut off the engine.

NOTE: For accurate results, wait at
least 60 seconds, and no more than
90 seconds, after turning off the
engine to check the fluid level.
Bla, bla, bla.

And I was only close when I said "within one minute" up there LOL. For SOME reason, that statement isn't shown in the sedan manual (electronic version).


Hell, let's go waay back and look at a 1990 Civic book:
The automatic transmission fluid level is checked (with the engine
off and the car on level ground) using the dipstick on the passenger
side of the transmission housing.

NissanNismoZ

Okay, good news, I think!
One of my friends happened to come over worried about what's been going on, so. He came over and tackled it and busted it loose!
And we found that the fluid wasn't burnt, nor did it have many shavings in it.
Also..I asked the PO what trans fluid he used..and he said he didn't change it.
I could have sworn he said he changed it before i bought it, but nevertheless, it wasn't dark at all.
Anyway, so the verdict is the fluid is red, doesn't smell burnt, and only had a little gray material on the plug, I even went as far as sticking a magnet of my own into the drain plug to come out with nothing.
So in the morning, when i can see, I'll fill it up with the 3qts of the honda fluid and seeing how it drives, then flush it, and repeat.
It's looking good!
Since I dont want to screw this up..its pretty simple..right?Just pour the new fluid in, let it idle for a few, then shift through all the gears..and drive?
Thanks!

ezone

Drain and fill 2.5 q, fire it up, shut it off, make sure it still has fluid.
Drive it around the block once. Drain it again.

Final fill:
Begin with adding 2.5 quarts. (3 will overfill it.)
Start it, cycle thru all gears-- leave in each gear a few seconds, put it in Park, shut it off.
Check it. Add if necessary. Probably won't need but 1/4 quart more.
Then drive it and recheck fluid level after trans fluid is fully warmed up.

ezone

Since you will be doing it all cold at first, I'd leave the fluid level just below the low/add mark on the dipstick since those marks are for checking hot.

Then after it's all warmed up and driven, check and add if necessary.

johndeerebones

Exactly what mine did, then I rebuilt it. That was almost 60k miles ago. I have ran the Castrol import oil since the rebuild with no ill effects. With that said though these trannys are choosey about fluid. Dexron fluid is w/o question a no no. It is entirely too thick. The Honda stuff is lighter weight, as is the Castrol. The Dexron doesn't flow through the internals correctly and does the same type of thing that the obstructed filter does. The engine must be off like ezone said, overfilling could also cause the symptoms you have. The caveat to a rebuild is this. I am experienced and very particular, ie time was not an issue. Without cutting down anyone particular, most tranny shops are paying guys little more than minimum wage half the time. This is a complex little tranny. Above the scope of your average fly by night tranny guy IMO. You would be money ahead to go reman, even with a price tag of x2 or more than a "rebuild" If a quality rebuild could be had for 1/2 of that of course it would make since, the sad fact is a large percentage of rebuilds have problems plaguing them though...

mikey1

good info i guess,

however none of this changes what my honda manual is telling me,

check ATF with the transmission hot, in park, with the engine idling

like i said, i have tried both ways....no difference in the reading

NissanNismoZ

Well..bad news is..
the Civic has the whine, which I was told is the torque converter or tranny pump going out..either way, the tranny is shot.
But, on the plus side, I've found a tranny with less mileage on it for 150 with a guarantee..now I just have to find someone to put it in for me..
Thanks EVERYONE for your inputs and ideas. I really appreciate it, but, unfortunately, it looks like I'll have to change out transmissions, seeing how I really love this car and cannot afford a rebuild.
Also..when I get this transmission put in..should I go ahead and change the fluid in it to Honda's tranny fluid? Just as a precaution and maybe make the new tranny last longer? Or just leave it alone?

NissanNismoZ

Wow.. Okay, I didn't know finding a transmission for this car would be SO difficult!!!
What is this 'click' thing I keep reading about?
How do I know how many clicks my transmission is?
If it helps, my gear selector goes
P
R
N
D
D3
2
Would that mean I have a 5 click transmission, since I have 6 gear selections, ignoring Neutral?
Also...would a 2003 Civic EX auto transmission swap into my 2001 Civic EX auto??
Thanks guys, I just want to know before I dump 800$ into a transmission I can't use.

ezone

What IS that click you talk about? I've never heard anyone describe it that way. You have a 4 speed automatic in an EX car.........Not a manual, not a CVT.It's not difficult..... You get one that matches your car. Let the junkyard figure that out, they have those interchange guides that tell what parts fit which years. You have an EX car, you need a trans from another EX because gear ratios are different (I think that's the main reason). I can't tell you just from looking at part numbers in the parts catalog because different years have different part numbers...but I have no clue what any differences might be between various years. THAT'S why the junkyards have those interchange guides. I think an 03 would work just fine as long as it's from an EX.....But I've been wrong before.

NissanNismoZ

Alright guys. Good news. I got a 30k mile transmission through JDM.
Bad news is, it's slipping/shifting hard when it does slip. It's like a slip KICK.
But it'd holding it's speed, and it seems like everything is starting to shift a little easier..BUT.
My D3 light doesnt come on anymore and it's almost as if the shifter skips it and goes into 2.
Right now, it seems to do the slip KICK while accelerating. Reverse is fine. Once i'm up to speed it's fine.
What I'm asking is..is this because the transmission just needs driven and everything loosened up?
Or is it because my linkage is now...funny? It's not the same way it was, that's for sure. Thanks! I made sure and used HONDA DW-1 fluid.