civicron

I'm replacing the timing belt / water pump in my 2004 civic ex coupe. Everything was going swimmingly until one of my water pump bolts snapped with the threads in the block.

It was a very clean break, no bits hanging off to grab with pliers so I think I'm going to have to use a bolt extractor to get this thing out. The only problem is there's absolutely no way i can get a drill bit in there right now since the wheel well is blocking access.

My question is whether there's a relatively easy way to lower the engine a couple of inches just so I can gain access to the water pump. Specifically, which mounts to loosen, where/how to support the engine, etc. For what it's worth, it's the lower left bolt if you're looking at the water pump dead on through the wheel well.

Right now the front left motor mount is off with the engine supported by jackstand/wooden blocks under the oil pan. If there's not an easy way to do this, I've considered boring a hole in the wheel well metal and gaining access this way then just placing some sort of rubber grommet in there or something to plug up the hole.

Any ideas or suggestions that will save me towing this thing to the shop are greatly appreciated!

Matt_75

Sounds like you're on the right path with your ideas. You'd have to worry about the a/c compressor hitting the frame if you try to lower it a couple inches. It should be doable since you have the mount removed with the exception of the a/c compressor. Otherwise drilling the whole in the wheel well would be your best option if your planning on drilling the bolt out.

ezone

Let that sucker hang down as low as it will drop. I do it all the time.
It can only drop so far.

Even if the comp pulley hits the subframe, you won't hurt it if you set it down gently.

Need even more room? Subframe will need to move, that's a lot more work.

civicron

this is probably a dumb question, but when you say "let it drop," what do you mean? Just lower the jack the engine is being supported with? will I need to remove any other mounts besides the front drivers's side, which is already off?

ezone

Did you try it yet?


Lower the jack, pull it out. The engine can only drop so far. The subframe stops it on the AC pulley.

mikey1

this isnt going to help you at all but im going to put it here for people in the future that might read this thread.....

the water pump bolts are tiny fragile 6mm bolts....all you need to do is hand tighten them with a socket, then a tiny little turn/snug with a 10mm wrench.....thats it, they dont need to be overly tight, the o-ring seals and crushes very easily

and for gods sake, NEVER use a torque wrench on bolts this small.....torgue wrenches are not very accurate at low torque values, just go by feel with a wrench

i never use a torque wrench on anything under 20 foot pounds, just go by feel

Matt_75

Uh oh. I guess I fcked up when I reinstalled my water pump last time when I did my HG. I torqued all four bolts to 104 in-lbs.

mikey1

if you didnt snap a bolt you got very lucky!

pjb3

No you didn't f'up. Torque wrenches are made in different ranges and if you had one that displayed in-lbs it was probably a 3/8" drive instead of 1/2" drive and calibrated for the lower values.

ezone

I'll give you this one.
True.
The rubber gasket does the sealing, and does it as soon as it is squashed.



Now you are just flat wrong.
You certainly can't expect a 1/2 drive 250 ft-lb torque wrench to be able to do this job, nor a 3/8 drive 100 ft-lb either.

You have to pick the appropriate tool for the job.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog


(Not saying I don't tighten by feel part of the time on small fasteners, I actually do torque properly by hand in critical applications.)

Matt_75

I guess I got lucky because I followed the Honda service manual torque spec.

civicron

Well, it looks like the engine will come down about an inch before the A/C pulley hits the subframe. I measured and need the engine 3-4" lower to get access to the bolt.

Here's a picture of the snapped bolt (circled in red) and another picture of the crank pulley so you can get an idea about how far down I need this sucker.

Any ideas? Will the engine lower these 3-4" without removing anything other than what's required to remove the subframe? If so, what's the best way to proceed from here?

ezone

Honestly, I've never tried so all I can do is guess.

Pull the AC compressor off of its mounts, see how far that lets the engine drop?

Short of actually pulling the subframe out to let the engine down further, I don't know what else you can do. Even then, I still don't know how far you can drop before you need to disconnect a bunch of other stuff.

Sorry, I'm not full of answers on this one.


Right angle drill? IDK if there is enough room for one of those either.








Hey, is the bolt broke off in aluminum....or steel?


I started thinking too much and now I can't remember what the front of the engine is made of. Brain fart!

Steel, right?

Matt_75

Well, I'm going to admit this against my better judgement. I'm running around in mine with only three bolts tightened. The fourth bolt wouldn't engage all the way to seat the pump and I didn't think to add some washers in there to use the fourth bolt. And no, I didn't mix the one little bolt with the other three bolts that are the same size.

So, for a little over three months now, I'm only been using three bolts. This all happened when I replaced my HG. I did replace the water pump o-ring at that time as well. The one above where your bolt broke is the one that's not seated against the pump. I've had no coolant loss that I can see.

Obviously you take your chances with doing something like this, but it's worked for me so far.

I know I may get a scolding for this(ezone), but I'm to lazy to go back in and add washers since it's worked so far. Once again, taking my chances with this the way it is.

ezone

Nah, all it takes to make a seal is squashing the rubber seal.

As long as the housing doesn't warp, it shouldn't leak for quite a while. But it may eventually warp.

I guess I've been lucky thus far, I haven't had to deal with that--- on this engine---- yet.... yet.
The last V6 pump had enough room to get my right angle drill in to drill it out.

Matt_75

Well, luckily, I'm one of those people who lifts the lid every opportunity I get and if large amounts of coolant disappear, that pump will be the first place I head too. I'll replace and add some washers to get it to tighten correctly if I think the pump housing is warped.

The really strange thing is I have no idea why the bolt won't go in all the way. The first time I did my timing belt and replaced the water pump long before the HG went bad I had no problem with the bolts. I just don't know why this bolt won't go in all the way unless the HG issue overheated the threads some how and warped them on that end of the block.

ezone

Nope. Something else maybe, but not that.

civicron

I think there's enough room for the right angle drill, but I don't think I can get a punch and hammer in there to start the hole

This was the first time the water pump has been replaced on my car (as far as I know) and I had the same problem. The bolt didnt go all the way in and just snapped. I knew the torque specs were low, so I didn't think I was hulking it when it snapped

Removing the subframe sounds a little iffy for my capabilities. Ugh, might be time to call around and get some repair estimates

Matt_75

Yeah. It's really strange. I'm almost thinking it came from the factory this way and I just never noticed it the first time I did the pump. Almost like the hole wasn't drilled and tapped deep enough. I know that may be far fetched, but it's not like a lot of work occurs around the water pump area. And I never had any service for anything from anybody in that area prior to me accessing it for the first time to change the timing belt, water pump and all other associated items in that area.

The only good thing is I never hulked mine. Once it started getting tight, I knew something was wrong. I even tried another bolt and it did the same thing so I'm convinced there's something wrong with the hole itself.

So next I'll either add some washers to the bolt or buy another bolt before I do the job and cut and grind it down about a quarter inch or so and that will become the second "special bolt" for my water pump.

Like I said above, I've been running around for over three months now with just three torqued to 104 in-lbs and I've had no leaks at all. It may warp the water pump housing, but as long as the pump is working and the o-ring is sealing, who cares.

mikey1

no....you got lucky that your torque wrench was accurate....most are not at low values

Matt_75

Yeah, it must have been luck that I chose to use a 20-200 in-lbs torque wrench to torque something to 104 in-lbs.

ezone

Can anyone guess what I'm thinking right now?

Don't say it.



If you are going to all that effort, just run a blind tap into the hole to chase the threads out and use a more suitable bolt.

Matt_75

Nope, I can't see it.

ezone

You lied. I'm impressed.

scooty

Ok here is how to fix this problem. I broke the same bolt. You raise, not lower the motor.

Undo the front mount and the rear one as well. Just put the car on jack stands and crawl under there, it's not too difficult.

You will then be able to raise the motor enough to get that very same right angle drill pictured above in there (its a Milwaukee drill i think).

mikey1

i am not offended by any of your comments....and i do not take anything you post seriously....seeing as these comments are coming from somebody who can't figure out why a bolt will not go back into the same hole that it came out of

that there in itself tells me your level of knowledge....or i guess i should say lack of it....

Matt_75

Oh please, great and wise one, tell me why my bolt won't go all the way in to the hole after I removed. Please tell me, great one, why those threads striped at the end of the hole and now I have to either tap the hole, use a shorter bolt or add some washers. Please, great one, enlighten me.

mikey1

you have just proven my point exactly.....

if you can't figure out why a bolt won't go back into the same hole that you removed it from, u obviously have very little mechanical sense, knowledge, or experience, so stop acting like your an expert

ever heard of a tap set?

so dont go around here trying to belittle people, and making comments to people like myself who have 25+ years more experience than you do, when you cant even thread a bolt into the same hole it came out of....

Matt_75

Oh great one, I thought you were going to tell me exactly why it wouldn't thread back in and not how to fix it.

Yes, oh great one. Thank you for setting me straight, oh great one.

LOL, pretty bold and defensive statement considering you have no idea about my background. You don't scare, intimidate or impress me.

Get over yourself. You're just another azzhole who can't take a poke or joke with out getting all bent out of shape. I'm sure that's served you well in life.

HD~Silverado

I did my timing belt about 5 months ago and i barely remember something about how the 2001 water pumps were different. This the bolts were different lengths so they said to make sure to check the bolt in the timing belt kit. Or maybe the water pump was a tad different. Though I may be completely out to lunch.