PhillyTurboSix

Took a pic of the radiator cap off. When I took it off I got the puff of air again. Your sure leaning me towards the head gasket more and more that's for sure. You might see this thing on eBay!

I have been working on cars for about 25 years along with having some ASE certs from some years back. I typically don't work on the newer stuff as it's faster and cheaper to take it to my mech to fix. His prices are great, he knows what he's doing, He'll let me jump in and help, and I can supply the parts for the jobs saving a few bucks from a typical shops parts mark up. I own 7 other cars and he gets them all for yearly inspections along with working on my other newer drivers.

I wish I had the time to dig into a job like a head gaskets on one of these cars as I would love to. I have crazy work hours and with the madness of life I just don't have the time to play on a car that gets me to work on a daily basis. I have a few classic cars that I've done everything from rebuilding the engines from a block to finish, but those can stay apart for a few months at a time if I don't have the time to play with them. The last rebuild took me a year and that was using up all of my free time.

So here is what it looks inside....

ezone

Well, Slim, that looks like the aftermath of an overheat to me. Water boiled off and left gelled ethylene/glycol/(whatever doesn't boil away).
Doesn't look like the few times I have seen stop-leak in them, but I haven't seen all the possible variations of those.

Only way to know for certain is to measure the head for warpage once it is apart.

Was this goo already in there when you obtained the car?

Next question: Is the neck eroded? The 2 round areas the 2 rubber gaskets must seal have to be nice and smooth.
Are either of them rough? If rough, that radiator is junk, the cap won't seal.

If the cap can't seal, then it can push fluid out and fill the reservior but not be able to pull the fluid back into the radiator upon cooldown.

PLUS the likely head gasket issue already discussed.

cb450sc

Can't say I have ever seen a rad with crud quite like that! I would be more inclined now to think head gasket. A question for everyone though... could this crud be the result of something like a rad stop leak?

ezone

I have seen it probably hundreds of times over my career. I associate it with overheating and boiling the antifreeze mixture, no matter what the actual cause of the overheat was.

The CAUSE of the overheat might vary, but the gelled crap is the result of the overheat.


It didn't really look like the stop leak products I'm familiar with......
BUT If someone put liquid glass in it (head gasket-in-a-can), I wouldn't know what that looks like.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

there we go a-gain

philly, sorry, but that is how these engines are, unfortuantely proven to be the case for too may of them.

i would have said to go through the list of the easy and cheap ones first, but the colloant going out from the reservoir is just... final...
yer not even the first this week

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

PS: I started the thread above because i was bored to say the same thing over and over again, which will give you an idea that it is actually significant (although the number of civics sold are way larger, so some of the lucky ones might be hitting 300k, but soowy, yours is like mine, not so luck...)

design flaw? nah, i got almost 100k, not so bad i woulda say.

but since yours are that way, sowwy again to say, but it is worse than mine was... mine was only loosing coolant...

finally, i am one that have to say, i DO listen to ezone. (sometimes he might be off the mark - 0.01% of the time...- , but usually he gets the bullseye waay better than me... and i work on cars since 14... and am 41 now...)

ezone

Hey, I'm only human.
Some days I'm more human than others.


And I can only read what others try to write.
Some days I seem unable to read.
Not much different here, except I made it my career..... And I'm a little older.

PhillyTurboSix

Man I hate you guys!!! Oh well it is what it is... and thanks again for your input. At least I have a mission now as to the unknown.

So next step. Figure I'm in bed with this car at this point. I could dump it and move on but I can't bring my self to sell someone a car in it's condition. It's a clean car overall and if I do all this stuff it should last me a long time. I don't beat on my cars at all. My last Honda I never even went WOT with it. Half throttle got me where I was going fine. You guys see how clean the car is so fixing it and keeping it a long time would be my best bet at this point? And if I did replace the head gasket, timing belt service, and..... ?? Think it would be best to see about flushing that radiator? I hate the fact they used that stop leak crap. Only kills and clogs everything down the coolant path! I'm half tempted to toss a new radiator in there as well. I'm taking a trip to the dealer tomorrow to go over all the parts so if you can think of anything else that will be in my path while I do this work let me know. I'd rather replace things in the way. I figure spark plugs are a no brainier as well. Thanks again for your input. It's helping ease the pain from being *** blasted a little!

Parts look up at the dealer tomorrow, Mechanic on Thursday for full evaluation. What do you think on a time frame to do all this hourly wise? Just trying to figure how long the car will be down.

ezone

Hey, WE aren't the one that bought it without a pre-purchase inspection by an impartial, paid, and observant technician.

If you are gonna sink cash into it, I'd think you would plan on keeping it around a while.



They didn't.

I'm betting you can't prove they did, and didn't completely read any of my posts.

Did you bother to CHECK the neck of the radiator before deciding it needs one?


I'd go aftermarket on the radiator....quality of many A/M are about the same as OE, but the price is a huge difference. I'd look for all brass, but I'm pretty sure you won't find one.

Factory head gasket set, factory thermostat. Factory timing belt and water pump. Factory coolant.
Head bolts are reused.

Correct NGK# plugs (or Denso) no matter where they come from.

Head can be R&R in a day or less, but if it goes to a machine shop that's a big variable.

Stock 99

Did you just buy it? Sometimes you have legal recourse in regards to being sold something that had known issues. Personally if it was my car and it seemed to be driving alright. I would make sure the rad was sealing properly and when the car is hot level off the coolant reservoir to the 'max' line. Monitor it for a week or so and see if the reservoir continues to overfill. If not maybe just a rad if 'yes' then you knew it needed a timing belt anyway so save some $$$ do it all the the same time and chalk it up to life experience. Enjoy your car....

Incidentally my car has gone 14 years now on it's original clutch and HG and I'm shooting for 'lifetime' on both.

PhillyTurboSix

Yes I just bought the car locally private sale. Once I have all the prices together I'm going to call the last owner for sure and run the numbers by them and see what type of reply I get. I did get the price down much lower then KBB and typically value you see them sellign for because I told him I knew I had to do the timing belt service as soon as possible. I'm ordering all the parts and taking a trip to my mech on Thursday for a full eval. I did call him and told him my findings on the forums here and he feels the same way, if it possibly could be the head gasket issue let's tear it down and replace it all doing the timing belt on the way back together. I'm sure hoping it's not a head gasket but it sure is looking that way.

@ezone: I'll have to snap a pic of the overflow with cap off. That's why I thought they used some head gasket sealer in there. It was silver gritty milky coolant looking stuff and filled to the rim with it. It sure wasn't pure coolant. I'll snap a pic and post for sure.

Neck of the rad looks good. No leaks anywhere. I'm just worried if they used a stop leak in there it could clog the rad up. I'll for sure give it a good cleaning and back flush a few times to get anything out of it.

I did get my parts list all in order today with a little trip to the local Honda dealer. I got great prices from the dealer with my body shops discount.

So here is my shopping list...
Head gasket complete kit (06110-PLD-010) $147.78
Timing belt (14400-PMM-A02) $17.97
Water pump (19200-PLM-A01) $59.55
T-stat (19301-REA-305) $21.37
Coolant (OL999-9011) $13.46
Trans Fluid (08200-9008) and gasket for trans plug,(90471-PX4-000) (might as well do that too!) $17.28 for 3 quarts and $1.54 for the gasket
Timing belt tension (14520-PLC-335) $93.21

Now I do have a question on that timing belt tension. The parts guy at the Honda dealer told me I just need 14520-PLC-335 if I'm going to replace it. I think you were talking about a tension kit? Or is this like the bearing replacement for it? If I'm going in I want to do it right because I'll keep this car for a long time going forward and I'll only use OEM Honda parts on these cars. I have a number of GM cars and I keep them all GM parts as well. I know I could save with aftermarket but you see what this gamble got me! doh!

Thanks again everyone for their input. It makes the pain a little less!

Edit: Still need to add spark plugs to the list and belts. If I missed anything let me know!

Civicnoobie

So new head gasket is part of maintenance and should be replaced every 7 years regardless of needing a new one or not?

What are signs of a bad or leaking head gasket?

Civicnoobie

I keep my rpms under 3000 as well but at times it can be hard like accelerating from a stop on a 80kmh freeway where all these big shots behind me with their jacked up trucks and SUVs will always floor it from the stop and get impatient cause im not driving like a race car like they are at 4000/5000rpms. People on my street always redlining their cars cold in my area.

mikey1

well of course there are exceptions....as you will notice i said "rarely".....getting onto a major highway/freeway is an exception, i will rev over 3,000 then also.....i meant on a regular basis/everyday driving

Civicnoobie

I know what you mean and it sounds like we have very similar driving styles, but even at reg lights with 50/60kmh limits, i always get these agressive drivers behind me who get upset cause im shifting at 2500rpms and not redlining it from the red light like they are at 6000rpms. I dont understand why people are so impatient on the roads. I once had this old lady on my street roll down her window and shout profanities cause i wasnt redlining it from my driveway after a cold start and she was speeding.

I get this all the time, morons who expect me to floor it on a cold engine. Youve been driving for awhile, you have the warm car you idiot. If you dont like it then pass me on the 1 lane street.

ezone

It comes as one piece. Pulley, bearing, fixture. All one piece.
I wouldn't touch it until the NEXT timing belt maintenance. They should last to 200k easy.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

go back and read again. no thread jacking, this one is still ongoing

PhillyTurboSix

Ok copy thanks! You saved me $93.21 off the job. I'll drop the tension pulley then. Your a money saver! I need all the help I can get at this point!

So let me ask you this.. My mech is a one man band typically. Small 2 bay shop. He said most likely a week to complete this project so he can do inspections, oil changes, and such to make money along the process as well. What dollar amount do you think I'll have to deal with as far a labor? I'm sure he's going to just look up the labor time for the job in his book and work around that number. I know his rates for me over the years have been very fair. My mechanics daily driver is a 2001 Accord so he's got a grip on them for sure and he's been around the block a few times but not old enough to be blind. He also has a local machine shop that can mic/r&r the head if needed. I'm just curious what rate you would charge and how long the job specs out to be just to give me a ballpark.

I'm going to flush the living hell out of that radiator and overflow bottle for sure. I went out to take a picture and the coolant level was down in the overflow so it didn't have the gunk in it. I topped that off with coolant and this time when I popped the radiator cap off I didn't get any sound of air escaping. That also took a small drink of coolant. I'm still driving the car to work. Short trip and it's been cold as ***** here. I check coolant levels every time I move the car and a close eye on the temp gauge while driving. I'm taking it easy as I can as well. My job is just a short highway run. I'm already thinking about when the jobs done because of the way I drive and treat cars, this thing should last 400K! It's almost like starting from new again for the most part is the only thing keeping me positive!

ezone

You are asking the wrong person.
Ask the one doing the work.

Stock 99

I think this is probably the best thing you can be doing in the short term. If it's sucking the coolant out of the res when it cools down then that's a good sign.

Hard with a car your not familiar with, eh?

I've had mine for just over a couple years now and I look under the hood about once a week just to make sure all is well. I know the first time I see that res over the 'max' line I'll have a problem.

PhillyTurboSix

You got that right but I love to learn and it won't happen again on my watch! She will be treated like a lady again! Nice to have these forums around where people post and help others. That's what it's all about. I would have been more in the dark and more pissed off if not for these forums that's for sure! I'm just glad they don't go like the GM V8's and V6's I own where they make a milkshake then it all has to come out! Been down that road with one of my turbo Buick's and that's not fun at all!

I'll deff keep posting here on this issue and the final results for sure!

ezone

Every GM V engine that used plastic intake gaskets! YAY! I made a lot of money off of those for many years.
I remember when we couldn't get any 3.1/3.4 gaskets from the dealers because they ALL **** the bed at 30k.

I loved lots of GMs up until the mid 90s cars. Had several prior to that era.

At least Hondas make it out of warranty without crapping the bed.

Stock 99

Lol, I think the Toyota 22RE was the nastiest engine I've dealt with. The timing chain could break the plastic guides and then chew through the water jacket milkshaking the oil.

Honda actually has a good design there if it was done on purpose. No milkshaking saves a lot of engine damage and it's easy to see your reservoir puking out fluid.

My '78 Civic used to run just fine until I shut it off and about 60 seconds later it would violently blow about a liter of coolant out the reservoir. I used to try and get as far away from it as I could before it puked so people didn't realize it was my car, lol

PhillyTurboSix

Oh those were a mess for sure! I had a 98 Chevy pickup that gobbled up an intake gasket. I got lucky with that one is just poured coolant out the back all over the transmission.

Not to get too far off topic, but here are my 2 kids that I wrench on...

ezone

I hate you.
EDIT:Ok, I'm jealous.

Some kid down the street from me had a turbo regal jacked up on 24s. I can't believe he did that to a car like that.

PhillyTurboSix

lol those cars always make people happy. I guess that's why I love em as well. The 87 is modified chrome everywhere with progressive alky spraying. The 86 I re-built bone stock down to the original Goodyear Eagle GT tires.

Now you know why I'm here trying to keep the cost as low as possible but yet doing it right with this Civic. My turbo Buick's keep my wallet empty!

I'll make you hate me some more.. This is my other baby...



89 turbo Trans AM. 30K original miles on it. Now you know where my forum name comes from! lol

Ok back on topic!

ezone

Sorry, not a big fan of those.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I hate you too now, philly

PhillyTurboSix

I can't help it I'm an late 80's junkie!

PhillyTurboSix

OK back on topic! I'm taking the car tomorrow morning to build a plan on how to get this poor Honda back in shape. I have my parts list ready to rock as well. I just hope his price to do the work don't kill the deal. I think I'm going to be stuck at a point where I say... do I fix the car and "know" what I have and smile for the next 100K with hopefully no issues... or do I blow the car out and look for another one. I really would hate to dump it on someone else. But his labor price might force me into it. The car is also going to need tires in the near future as well. I like the color and the car a lot. I still can't get over how clean it is inside and out. There is no wear on the interior at all. For being a beige type Q interior, there isn't a stain anywhere. Still has the original Civic floor mats and they are perfect as well. Oh well.. I'll keep you guys in the loop either way!

PhillyTurboSix

Well I'm back from inspection with the Honda. That went well didn't need brakes or anything. Very clean all around. Mechanic looked around the car for about 2 seconds and said "I see why the guys on the forum said it's a bad head gasket from a computer chair now" lol Everyone said the same thing.. shame it's such a clean car. From what I paid for the car and for what it's going to cost to fix it, I'll still be way under kelly blue book or even what the same car is selling for on eBay presently. So at least I won't be upside down in the car spending this money on it. The underneath is as clean as the top if not cleaner.

No signs of a blown strut they look new almost. All four tires are feathered bad when I pulled into the shop the dust on the floors showed it even more on the tires. Even my mechanic was like "really?" This thing sounds like a steamroller going down the road! But we'll get some new rubber on there in the near future as well. There is plenty of tread left just feathered to hell. Looks like there is about 45K on them from the last owners receipts.

So it looks like I'm going to take the plunge and get this thing fixed. My mechanic said no problem doing the job he's done plenty of them over the years. He said bring it in on a Tuesday and he should have it done the following Monday. So my grand totals are as follows...

$422.33 for parts. That's everything soup to nuts from the head gasket on up including all new rad hoses, belts, t-stat, gasket kits, you name it. He said the radiator looks good he will just wash and flush the hell out of it. Those spark plugs cost me $55.04 for the set my price! What in the world are the plugs for these cars made out of!? I see why the window sticker says no parts needed till 110K. But hey it all has to be genuine Honda parts for me so I'd rather spend the money on the correct parts for the car!

$700.00 labor. That's tear it all down, flush everything, clean everything, oil change, trans drain and fill, and putting it all back together. He said around another $200 for the head work. He has a local shop that can clean and check the head to make sure it's not warped.

So for $1,322 and change I'll have a Honda ready for another 100K with ease.

What do you guys think about the prices? I thought it seemed fair for labor. I called a local Honda dealer and they wanted $459 for the head gasket service and $459 for the timing belt service and that's not doing anything but taking the head off and putting it back on. That didn't include flushing the rad and oil change and trans. That price was also using my own Honda parts. I was surprised the dealer didn't mind that I already purchased the parts. I guess because they are Honda parts they didn't mind. I'm waiting on a call back from 2 other Honda dealers on a price as well just to get a comparison from the dealers. I'd rather go to a dealer but at this point in time I'm in penny pinching mode but making sure it's done right. I trust in my mechanic. I do feel bad because he's a one man band so it's going to tie up his one lift for awhile but he's making money . Thank god my body shop let me use his account to buy the parts at his price or we would be adding a lot more on to that parts list! So hopefully soon I'll have a very happy 05 Civic again! I can't wait!

Is there anything else I may have missed? I checked my list and went over it 10 times already. One question I did have is what's involved with the heads on these cars? Are they just going to clean it? Is there anything I should replace in the head while it's apart? I'd hate to not replace some cheap parts in there while it's out. I guess they will just mic it and clean it up for the most part. I've never had one of these heads in my hand.

I'll also see if I can stop by for pics and such as the job is going on just to post for you guys give you something to look at.