n33t

i posted on another thread but didnt realize it was from 2010, not much of a forum junkie, but saw this site kept popping up everywhere.. i wrote a long blog but i'll shorten it...

ive taken my car and its now the 4th time being in the shop: currently, its being held hostage and the last news ive heard on it was there was "air in the cooling system"

had my oil changed and asked them about over heating issues - guys said im leaking coolant, all at the bottom of the car and he smelt it.

i took my car to a recommended shop (fail boat more like it) - guy says its my radiator: get that replaced.
2 weeks later
my car still over heating so i take it back (because i like getting ripped off) and the guy says, oh its my FAN switch.. hmm weird cuz when i got the car back the LAST time, my heater was cranked up!.. whuuut - chalked it up as a mere coincidence.
so sends me on my way... not a few days later does it start to over heat again.. take it back to the shop, guy says it was the thermostat - okay.. sweet, at this point i already have my doubts.
sure enough not even the NEXT day.. my car over heated again.. im in the middle of moving too so i wasnt able to take it in right away..
well now, 10/17 my car has been in the shop, held hostage and this issue has been on going since 09/18, today will be a month.. and this shop apparently knows jack **** about civics..
i feel like im doing more of the investigating work while they just assume whats going on..

signs:
the car doesnt get ALL the way to HOT, but more close to comfort especially with it never getting that high before

it smells like maple syrup when you let it sit for 5 minutes

theres a film type residue on my windshield, the inside at the bottom..

not sure if it happening before this issue but the car pulls to the right slightly, but that could be alignment

no water/coolant in the white bucket and nothing in the radiator, friend checked it last night and stuck her finger in the radiator and bone dry..

there is no spotting, no smoke coming out of the tail pipe

the car runs fine, no check engine light (maint req) car has never just turned off by itself..

the heater will turn cold when the car starts to overheat..

trying to see basically, one guy from here said it could be a failed/blown HG
but whats the difference between:

a blown HG, failed water pump OR heater core?

***basically, since these ninnys at the car shop dont know crap about civics, im reading up on it: i cant keep affording parts being replaced based off only assumptions ****

mikey1

well first you need to determine HOW the car is losing coolant, is it leaking? or is it consuming the coolant?

the radiator should always be full, the overflow tank should always be between the min and max lines,

are you using the OEM blue coolant?

was the thermostat replaced with an OEM honda thermostat? my guess would be no, seeing as it wasnt done at the dealership, these cars tend not to like aftermarket thermostats, so the first thing i would do is replace the thermostat with an OEM HONDA thermostat,

when the temp gets up high, turn the heat onto full blast for a few mins, does the temp guage go down? does the heat stay hot? or does it turn cold?

if it starts getting cold that means your coolant is not circulating fast enough/properly and you must have a clog in the system, maybe a clogged heater core itself, or a faulty water pump but i would highly doubt that

pjb3

Head gaskets can fail in different ways but the most common way in Civics is failure between a cylinder and the cooling passages. This allows combustion gases to enter the cooling system with the result that coolant is displaced into the overflow reservoir. It is often common for the heater to stop working since the combustion gases don't transfer heat the way coolant does. If the overflow reservoir is full or overflowed I would test for head gasket issues. There are kits that test coolant for combustion gases but these are not always accurate. The simplest is to remove the spark plugs and pressurize the cylinders with compressed air, preferably 175 psi. If the coolant is up to the neck of the radiator you should see it rising if the compressed air is entering the cooling system. They make funnels that attach to the radiator filler that make this easier to see or measure.
Water pump failure is usually the seals and the result is coolant leaking and running down the engine. People talk about a water pump not circulating the coolant but I have never seen this or heard of it happening in real life. Water pumps are simple and about the only things that can go bad are the bearing and the seal.
The only things that can go wrong with a heater core are it can become plugged or develope a leak. If it is plugged you would have no heat but there wouldn't be a leak either. If it is leaking you would get the sweet smell of antifreeze and either coolant on the carpets or you would see the mist on the windshield.

One thing with Civics is that getting all the air out of the cooling system can be difficult. If the guy replaced the radiator and didn't know Civics he may not have gotten all the air out. I would also agree with getting an OEM thermostat. I don't think aftermarket thermostats are necessarly worse but the temperature needs to be correct and with OEM there is less chance for error. Replacing the thermostat will require bleeding all the air out of the cooling system. Do a search and you will find instructions on how to get the air out of the cooling system.

I have never done it on a Civic, but in the past when I had a car with a leaking heater core I connected the hoses together bypassing the core until I had time to replace it. If I had to guess, I would go with head gasket. The overflowing reservoir is probably why he thought the radiator was leaking since they are next to each other. Since the leak occurs while driving the antifreeze would be blown around so it may appear other places on the engine as well.

The simplest and cheapest test is compressed air in the cylinders but given the track record of your mechanic I'm not sure he would get it right. If it is the head gasket I think you would also have to ask yourself if he is the guy you want replacing it.

ezone

Needs a head gasket job.

Recommended by whom?

At least you recognize, and I LOL'd at fail boat.

lowlife9

your friend stuck her finger where ???

Matt_75

Yeah that was me from the other thread. Yes, as ezone said, it needs a head gasket job.

n33t

so far, the car is running fine - the guy said there was bubbles coming up when he did some kinda test - i drove with him for over an hour yesterday with the AC on full blast and nothing, also noticed a new radiator cap.. poor guy, i wrapped myself up with a blanket cuz it was a cold *** ride, while he had no jacket on either. however ive gotten the car back before and had it for a week before sure enough it went back to hot..
i will keep you guys posted - im really hoping its not a blown headgasket.. i dont have the funds to pay for that kinda job.. why couldnt this crap happen during tax time! if only this car (and hopefully this car) can hold out that long - i will take it in to get a diagnostic check and 2nd opinion somewhere else.. but for now since ive started with this place and any time i return my car he doesnt charge me - kinda feel bad he was telling me he's never had a car as difficult as mine - also replaced my back tail light that went out..

***speaking of tail light***

the bulb broke off and is just rolling around in the dome (not sure what its called or if im even explaining myself right) i should be able to find a way to take the panel off and pop out the whole thing, (im sure eyebrow tweezers will work, resourceful! if i cant pop the panel out) i see cars that have their lights whited out unless its that difficult of a job (i also got a ticket for this light a few weeks ago - my luck is just crappy! PLUS im moving and work graveyard and have a child..)
wouldnt the car be doing more then just reading hot if the HG was blown? the white bucket is never full or over flowing or maybe im not understanding what the reservoir is you mean the white bucket? its never full..

if there was bubbles in the cooling system, why would the car leak coolant? i tried asking my mechanic that but he keeps saying they cant find any leaks i feel like im going crazy. if there were bubbles in the cooling system, how would it cause the car to smell like maple syrup?

thank you all to those who've responded and matt, whos posted twice giving me the dreded nightmare..

lowlife9

thers bubbles because coolant is being replaced with air from the blown headgaskit it smells like maple syurup because engines coolant is very sweet smelling and tasting hence why they say keep it away from kids and animals. your car smells because the coolant is burning off and mixing with the oil because of the headgskit. you can bring your car to pepboys or advanced auto and they will perform a chemical test to find if it is the headgskit for free. my ols acura legend did the same thing i would have to refill and burp the radiator every week because of the headgaskit.

as for the taillight open the trunk pull back the material by the taillight buy removing the little black clips they spin out unclip the bulbs they also spin out in one direction then remove the tiny nuts around the taillight and push out from the back.the whole thing should pull rite out then just shake the bulb out.

ezone

It is, and start saving your pennies.

I wouldn't feel bad. These head gaskets are easy to diagnose once you have seen a couple. Use the opportunity to educate your mechanic if his ego will let that happen.


They will not find a problem.






I can prove a head gasket on that in well under the 1.0 diag charge at the shop. And be able to say exactly which cylinder(s) are at fault.
Zero guesses, zero throwing of unnecessary parts to still not figure it out.
I apply shop air pressure (170+ PSI) to each cylinder. Watch the coolant level rise on the bad ones.
If your mechanic is smart, he will use this method to find your problem. Print it and give it to him: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/p...54-post10.html

thiggins20

i feel your pain man, i have the same type of problem that i just dont understand, but if your oil doesnt look "watery" or hazy, and Dark smoke isnt coming out the exhaust, then its not the HG, so what i did is flush your radiator a few times, spray it down GOOD with water to make sure nothing is clogging the filter ( bugs, leaves etc.) then fill up on collant, fill reservoir with DISTILLED water, and change the oil (optional) not the problem doesnt occur much anymore but when it gets to heating up, turn your AC ON, turn your DEFROST ON, thhe AC turns the fan on and the Defrost circulates the water faster thru the system, try it out if it helps

ezone

I see that.

There are far more than only 2 ways a head gasket can fail, and far more than only 2 symptoms anyone could ever possibly notice.

Try an easy dozen different ways or more.

This problem on this particular engine almost never gives either of the symptoms you mentioned. (I say "almost" because it COULD happen, but I have never ever witnessed the symptoms you mentioned with the engine still running ok.)

These are a "pattern failure", same symptom and same cause almost every time, but to varying degrees depending on if anyone catches the problem before damage is done.

Umm, would you care to explain your theory on that one?

HTH

revr63ed7

a cylinder leakdown test with a spill proof funnel on the radiator will find these head gaskets. Pressurise each cylinder at tdc and wait, if there is a breach you will notice a slight rise in the colant in the funnel. If you wait long enough you will start to see bubbles rising in the coolant.

ezone

Exactly....only I don't use a leakdown tester with regulated ~30ish PSI air pressure, that doesn't find *poop* unless it is horribly bad.

I use straight shop air line pressure-- 170+PSI.
Much closer to real cylinder pressure than a wimpy 30.

This method has not failed me yet.

n33t

i dont get it.. my car went back to hot this morning driving home

its going back into the shop.. only problem i hate with telling these guys anything that could be the issue, is theyll fix it when its not even the problem.. apparently me needing a raditator wasnt the problem as to why my car was over heating..

im going with failed HG - the car is starting to shift funny too.. or i could be over analyzing it but sometimes usually when you have a gut feeling your car isnt running right.. youre usually right..

im going to make these guys work on my car until they figure it out themselves.. how nice is it, to go into a mechanic shop, for the 5th time and tell them "well, according to this forum, theyre saying HG" and then banking off this for another 1500 job that maybe isnt even what the problem is.. i'll make sure they get to the point of the matter, im ruling heater core out of this - im going with either HG or water pump.

we shall see...

n33t

i have a lot of pennies but im sure they'd want me to roll them up and insert them in my *** because waiting to shove each individual penny in might take too long and im sure theyre busy ripping other people off.. hahaha
i'll print this out, but the last time when we took the car for a test drive he was going on about how he burped the car and everything else.. even he kinda hinted he was stump'd as to what next to do.. when i drop the car off, i guess i can mention to check the HG - i spoke with the manager there and asked if they replaced the thermostat with the honda brand as it doesnt like after market from what i gathered on here - they said they ordered the part from honda themselves..

you guys have been extremely helpful! why cant one of you live close - take my car into this shop and ream them a new hole in the head.. i feel ike a 2nd language is forming when i talk to them..

im trading my car in for a powerwheel.. at least it comes with less parts..

ezone

I'll be darned.




I FOUND YOUR PROBLEM!!


The world is full of people that WORK on things..
Far fewer can actually FIX things.

You need to seek out someone that can actually FIX problems.










There's a lot more to it than just that though.
Most people won't understand unless they are in the business.

n33t

meh..

i didnt take it back to the shop - im taking it to a dealership to get it looked at..

after hearing "we tried everything but bring it back we'll take another look" isnt sitting well with me and if thats any response to give to a customer then apparently they are a fail boat mechanic.. my ideal of mechanic, isnt "tried everything" because apparently they didnt and theyre lousy with calling me back, they dont know what the problem is then say you dont know and send me on my merry way; like right im goin to bring my car back so you can drain any last existing life it may have before my engine drops dead!

i will be taking it to the dealer shop this weekend..

again thanks guys for letting me rant/ramble/blog.

ezone

Be well aware:
(These are all my own observations and opinions here, and may or may not apply to any shop you have experience with.)

Dealers hire low wage flunkies too.
Low wage flunkies doing simple grunt work generate the majority of the revenue (in the eyes of the bean counters).
High paid techs that can solve any problem are not only a rare breed, they are rarely needed for a good percentage of the work......but there is no substitute when we are needed. (SOMEone has to be able to tell the rookies what parts to hang.)

Very few shops keep a full staff of top-gun techs, no matter if it is dealer or independent shop...
My experience has been that MAYBE 10-25% of the shop staff are actually qualified and capable of doing nearly any job given to them, and also are able to bail out whatever problems the rookies cause.

Probably 75% of the employees in any shop are oil changers and parts replacers, not problem solvers.

You probably need to insist that their rocket scientist is the one to fix it.






We all look the same to some people.
Put on a uniform shirt and suddenly everyone thinks we can fix cars.
Some people think that anyone with a shoebox full of tools has the exact same abilities and talents as the next clown with a shoebox full of tools.

If you just strolled into the shop I work in and saw everyone, I'd probably be the last person you would want touching your car.
I'm the homeless looking ex-hippie longhaired biker, rarely wearing a uniform, and I have clean fingernails.



Hmmmm.....This turned into some sort of rant. Something must have happened today at the shop.

lowlife9

its all true i remember when i worked for a toyata one kid that was being sponsored for his T-ten did a total of $9,000 dollars worth of damage to new vehicles his first week on the job it also took him an hour to do an oil change with a lift.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

might be true for low compression engines with higher collant pressures.
My guess is that the D17 type engines have low pressure coolant system but comes with the higher compression engine, so the coolant does not go to the oil, the combustion gases goes to the coolant, and a small amount of oil *might* go to the coolant. but the combustion gases are gases - any small leak get to the coolant - and they go outta the reservoir and sometimes leak is small enough to not register on the chemical test.

n33t

hi im back again.. sorry for the late enterance not that im sure anyone was really waiting.. but finally took my car in ~ so for the guy who said first hand, blown head gasket, im sorry for doubting you.
i had moved in october to a closer location so my commute from work to home wasnt dragging on my car - so i rode on it after i had the radiator done the heater plug thingy done, new thermostat done.. but now i wanna go to vegas and travel longer then a 30 min road trip i need my car back.. so just yesterday i took it in and dropped my income tax on it.. i just hope thats it... he also said there was water in the engine
so while the guy was talking prices i threw in there how about replacing the water pump and the timing belt, all for 1,200 ;x these forums are nice ~ thanks to all of you who chipped in and helped.. guys roll their eyes when girls get on here im sure but truly thankful these things are here because the guy at the shop was impressed i wanted to have the rest done which he even said it would save in labor in the long run..

<3

GROUP HUG!!!!!!! :P

mikey1

thanks for the update....

water/coolant in the engine can do alot of damage very quickly.....i would suggest doing 2-3 more oil changes fairly quickly....maybe one every 2 weeks to make sure you get all the coolant/water out

pjb3

If it hasn't had an oil change do one. Two or three is a waste since any residual moisture will burn off when the engine as at operating temperatures.

ezone

Thanks for the update. Hope it goes well.

I don't remember that I had any clue you were a girl from just the posts. You never actually played the girl card IIRC.
Um, that one guy over there ---->
is all sticky. Ewww


Read on:


True
The head gasket job SHOULD include at least one oil change as part of the job. I include it when I make an estimate since I usually expect that coolant dumps into the crankcase when the head is yanked off. Even if the block was drained (water pump job) and there wasn't any coolant contamination on my part, it is still customary to do it as part of the head gasket job. JMHO.

I might change it again before it leaves for good too, just for peace of mind. Cheap insurance. (depends on how the job went too.)
I can't trust a customer to get an oil change in the next 50-100 miles.


Erm, maybe not, IMO.
The WATER might boil off, but not the ethylene glycol.
(It's anti-freeze, AND anti-boil)

Ever seen when a slow antifreeze leak has left a green trail of evidence?
That same "green crusty buildup" (from evaporated antifreeze) would be left in the crankcase after the water boils off, and it becomes an abrasive. Not good for bearings.

PLUS there is always some oil left in the engine that can't come out during a simple oil change, up to a full quart in some cases.

I'd take the 2 or 3 oil changes (if it wasn't me that did the work).

OP: Not sure what your time frame is between doing all this work and the trip, but if it's real close I'd probably want to do the last oil change right before hitting the road.

Check the oil with every tank of gas (and coolant level in the reservoir if the engine isn't cold), just to make sure nothing is going wrong out on the road.

Good luck!

PhillyTurboSix

Now go read my thread (link below) and you can find all the parts and part numbers for the job with some prices I was reading this thread and it's almost the same as mine! I'm so glad I did the work on mine. The car is running better then new for a car with 100K on it. I just treated it to some new tires and now it's quiet as mouse going down the road and smoother then smooth can be!

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...me-little.html

n33t

yes - i actually asked if he'd do the oil change because it was due for one anyway but he said it comes with doing the headgasket ~ but i should have 3 done?? (obviously within weeks apart ~ but recommend 50-100 miles then get one done?)

sooo; im wondering if all my problems were because i usually wait for my maintenance light to come on to tell me i need an oil change.. is that bad? (dont laugh after seeing all this, oil change this oil change that im seeing that the oil change is playing a huge part in this, but the guys at vavoline always say my oil looked okay, never low or nothing in there which is why i never saw a problem but now while i have all you guys i can ask the real techs)

yeah the girl card lol ive learned you dont come off as "hi im new im a girl" cuz usually the odds in that favor are "great; not gonna bother she wont listen" lol ;x trickery

IIRC (whuts that? ~ looks like a chat client, close to MIRC lol)

anyway that sticky guy obviously has no shame in his game!
lol
<---that guy i'd be careful of more so then the sticky one.

i cant say ive ever seen any of my cars leak anything other then just water so i dunno what antifreeze even looks like.. but i can tell you my car has had me craving many pancakes from the syrup smell.. lol thankfully im too lazy to make pancakes and i hate restaurants.

also i hope when getting this done, i noticed a slight difference in temp from the needle; when i use to turn the car on it wouldnt be near the middle marker but when all these problems came about; the gauage always looked off - im going to assume the headgasket was raising the bar slightly cuz it wasnt sealed?

and why didnt ever my check engine light not come on? i would think if something major like a blown headgasket would set the light on right? :\


but i really hope this guy at this shop knows what hes doing, when i tried explaining all that i had done for the car he could have very well looked like this guy:---> lol i guess he didnt need me to tell him anything because obviously hes there and i took it to a honda shop

sooo hoping they are still the same from 11 years ago.. RIP my 87 accord; i killed it when i drove it to texas in 2000 i could go into another story on that car but i'll spare you guys ;x

</end blog>

ezone

Good on the mech for doing it as part of the job.

One of your posts mentioned "water in the oil"---indicates to me that would be "antifreeze in the oil".

Doing multiple oil changes is ultimately up to you. Talk to the mechanic about it too (if they sound competent in the first place). I'd still probably do at least one more change after 50-100 miles (mostly because I don't know the guy doing the work, we don't all work the same way).

The whole point is to get all traces of contamination out of the crankcase (oiling and lubrication system) because even trace amounts of antifreeze mixed in the oil is detrimental to the life of the bearings in the engine. (The life of the engine bearings DEPENDS on good quality clean oil.)

An oil change only might only get (example) 80% of the oil out, as I stated earlier. It takes more than one change to try to get the remaining 20% "diluted out". Remember, that 20% was contaminated with antifreeze, that's why I'm trying to get it out.




BTW: That 20% figure actually is accurate for some engines.
I did an engine replacement in an 08 Civic yesterday and today.
This engine only holds 4 quarts of oil during a normal oil change (including filter).
But it took 5 full quarts to fill it up as a brand new, clean and dry engine. That's where my 20% figure comes from.
All engines have some amount of residual fluid that can't be drained during normal service.
Make more sense now?
Ok, stop.

Following the reminder light is how it was designed to work, and it works just fine if you
A) Follow it as designed, and
B) Check your oil regularly and top it up if it gets low.
Your current head gasket problem was never caused by a lubrication failure, so your oil change habits were just fine.

The frequency of your previous oil changes has absolutely nothing to do with the head gasket problem.
These engines have head gasket issues, no matter what you do. If it was going to be a problem, there isn't anything you could have done to stop it.

You aren't on a techs' forum. This is more of an enthusiasts' forum IMO.
I happen to be an actual Honda dealer tech though.
I think I might be one of only a couple actual professional techs that post here regularly.
Kudos for actually being aware of what happens when that card is played early in the game.
IIRC=If I Remember Correctly
IMO=In My Opinion
IMHO=In My Honest (or Humble) Opinion
IOW=In Other Words
OMGWTFBBQ=OMGWTFBBQ

What else?

I'm not touching that one.
(antifreeze=coolant)
Sickeningly sweet smell: Once you know just how poisonous Ethylene Glycol is, it might make you sick.


Antifreeze in these cars can be green, dark green, or blue (IF the proper coolant was used).
Honda specifies Conventional Ethylene Glycol, Non-Silicate and Non-Borate formula.

Other manufacturers can use a variety of other colors: red, pink, orange, yellow, purple, clear....probably more.
Color isn't even any kind of indicator of WHAT the coolant type actually is. There can be a variety of different formulations that use similar dyes/pigments.
They are not all the same, nor are they compatible with each other.
Also, no matter what you see on the shelf at your local discount parts store, there is no such thing as "universal coolant". Ever.

Antifreeze is high tech stuff these days.

----------
Other fluids in your car:
Automatic Transmission fluid is usually red,
Engine oil is somewhere between gold and black
Correct power steering fluid looks the color of gold motor oil when it is new
Brake fluid can be somewhere between clear and yellow

Plain water drips from the AC evaporator drain when it is running.




The normal spot for your temperature gauge needle is somewhere near the middle.
Fixing the head gasket should only keep the gauge from showing that it is overheating. The gauge should return to its normal operation.

Once the engine is warmed up, the needle should stay dang close to the exact same spot near the middle.

It's sort of like a glorified idiot light sometimes.

That gauge is actually "buffered" by the computer, meaning the actual engine temperature can vary quite a bit without the needle moving....as long as it stays within a normal operating range (170*F-220*F), the needle doesn't hardly move much, if any.
That range I mentioned above IS a normal range of operating temps, and not a cause for concern.
(If the temp needle actually moved that much, most average people would freak out.)

If it goes higher than the normal spot, there is a problem.



The computer cannot monitor all possible problems. It mainly monitors things that affect emissions and the running of the engine, and blowing a head gasket is not anything the design engineers would consider monitoring. It might detect problems after the fact though.

The only way this computer MIGHT even begin to suspect something is amiss, is when it overheats SO BADLY that things start to melt. It might record some coolant temperature sensor reading that it thinks is impossible, or it might detect misfires as it tries to quit running.
IOW, after it's too late and damage is already done.

Many years ago, we used to joke that the computers just can't see that your left rear tire went flat either, you had to get out and look at it.
Guess what?
Now they can, and there's warning lights for it. May even be a display that tells you just how low it is.

tl, dr
LOL
HTH

^^google those if you need to

ezone

Gawd that was long. Did I miss anything?

n33t

LOL - i dont need to look up the acronyms.. my license plate is the one that says "OMG HI" surprised you didnt pick up the girl part with just that alone ;x

but what you DID miss was taking a shower. :P

anyway - RIGHT NOW.. that IS tl;dr
teehee

but the times i post usually are when im at work.. i have more time to actually sit down and read and comprehend it print it out also, save it for the *******.. maybe read it along with breakfast.. lol

nah, i do appreciate your help; i will come back here later; giving kiddo a shower and need to get myself ready for the graveyard shift.

I SHALL RETURN TO RESPOND!

(blogs a lil now, blogs longer later )

ezone

I never saw anything about that.



Until now... I just clicked the pic on the sidebar thingy. LOL


How'd you know? Can you smell me from way over there?