Civicnoobie

Ya you wont believe it. I was just at another one of my mechs (honest good guy) and we were planning on replacing the rear knuckle front bushing. We pop off the wheel hub and that black ring around the silver knuckle isnt a bushing. Its a sub axel he said. I even wiped it down and it was solid. He said its one piece.

So i bought this $50 bushing from honda and the cambolts for nothing. Cant return it cause no refunds. ****!

Not my car but you see what i mean.



Now heres the thing, my drums always come off very easy by hand, dont even need a hammer cause lately ive been taking them off so damn much. Well today when he went to take my back right drum off, it wouldnt buldge at all. Not even spin! It was locked up! He said the drum was too hot and overheated. How can a drum overheat? Im really regretting painting my drums now if this one is overheating. He said i shouldnt paint the drums.

He inspected all bushings (knuckle bushings, LCA, sway bar, even the camber bushings...am i missing any?) and tried to make them buldge and they were all solid as hell. So its 100% not the bushings. Plus my mech yesterday said same thing its not the bushings.

He said because my drum was so hot and locked up and wouldnt even move, he said its my right ebrake cable that seized and is corroded or whatever inside and is causing my shoe in that drum to lock up. I was shocked. Didnt think an ebrake cable would cause this. He said hes 100% certain.

Should I do more testing or should i just get the ebrake cable replaced? What are the chances its the rear normal brake line as well as the ebrake line?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like he is exactly right... Ebrakes generally seize on and it happens rather frequently especially if you seldom use it.

Civicnoobie

I mostly use my ebrake for just parking. He also said, if youre parking on a flat surface dont use the ebrake cause theres no need to and it just puts more wear and tear on it. True?

I still dont understand how a seized ebrake cable and cause drums to lock up. Im guessing it locks up the shoe inside?

And he said this would explain why im getting a scaling "ger ger" groaning sound when i drive and brake. I thought a seized ebrake cable wouldnt effect a shoes performance when the ebrake is off.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i painted my drums several times starting 3 yrs ago and never had any lockup issues. that doesnt make sense at all. why would painting the outside drum have anything to do with the brakes? the only way a drum brake overheats is if you forgot the ebrake up and drove the car, or there is some kind of failure inside the drum hardware, or if the ebrake is not adjusted properly (it can drag the rear brakes in the lowered position). there are bolt holes in the drum that you can thread a bolt into to pop off a stuck drum btw. mechanic really should know that. ebrake problem is possible, but idk. most of it is inside the car and hard to get corroded or stuck. its a heavy duty cable assembly.

tbohar is exactly right, i didnt think of it but yes i forgot most people never use their ebrake. i use mine all the time for short bursts while driving to slow the car a lil bit before pressing the pedal to stop. gives the rear brakes a workout and in adjustment while saving some front brakes. i do not recommend doing this unless you think about what youre doing and use common sense. its easy to cause an accident or overheat the rear brakes if you do it wrong.

mechanic is right, do not use ebrake on a flat surface. only if you park on a slope and only for a few hrs if possible. keep in mind that it is better to use the ebrake on a hill rather than not, because then the auto trans takes all the weight of the car which isnt good either, prolly worse actually. so use the ebrake on a hill (before the car is in park), and dont use ebrake on flat ground.

MindBomber

I've also painted my drums annually for five years without any issues, to even suggest painting them would cause the drums to overheat is absolutely ludicrous.

The only possible causes are those stated already in this thread.

Civicnoobie

Well the mech who said not to paint my drums was yesterdays. I thought it was a bit odd too, cause i know lots with painted drums and no problems. He said when its painted the heat doesnt escape nearly as well. Same with calipers.

Do any of you know of an other ways to test for a seized ebrake cable? Im sure my mech today is right but i just want to make sure. What are the chances its my normal brake line to that one tire?

So basically a seized ebrake cable can cause the shoe inside to stick and drum to lock? I still dont get the logic behind it.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

as for het escaping, drums get nowhere near as hot as rotors, in fact usually i can put my hand on them and not get burned after driving. the calipers hardly even get warm, at least on our cars.

if you had a busted brake line, your brakes wouldnt work at all. it does sound like a busted ebrake cable. no way to know for sure without taking the drums apart and checking where the cable goes. it happens. way back when i didnt use my ebrake much at all, sometimes the rear brakes would lock up when parked and i had to play with the ebrake to get them to clunk free otherwise the car wasnt moving anywhere. i am surprised you never felt anything wrong tho when they were locked like the car slowing down faster when taking your foot off the gas, or bad acceleration.

Civicnoobie

Well he said the ebrake cable would be seized from being corroded inside. My ebrake cable isnt getting stuck or jammed right now, but a few months ago it did once and i had to get my mechanic to adjust the cable. He said the cable inside the drum was sticking or something.

The only thing ivve been getting lately is the scaling sound when driving "ger ger" groaning sound.

So im guessing when the ebrake cable is seized inside, it doesnt let pressure getthrough causing the shoes to drag?

pjb3

Paint on the drum could prevent heat from escaping in theory but in practice you would need a coating that was very thick, much thicker than you would ever paint the drums. In other words, paint is not a problem.

I have had cables stick on other cars but not the Civic. Usually there are two posibilities, corrosion or ice. Ice happens when water gets inside the cable, freezes and causes the cable to bind, corrosion is usually from water also. I have had both happen and the best solution is to replace the cable.

You can test by disconnecting the cable at both ends and seeing if it moves freely. If it doesn't you can try penetrating oil and work it until it frees up, the problem is this is temporary and it will stick again.

I always use the parking brake. On an auto I shift to neutral first, apply the parking brake, release the foot brake and then shift into park. The idea is that the parking brake is holding the car instead of the parking pawl in the transmission. My driveway is steep enough that I always use the parking brake and it has become a habit even on flat ground. I guess it comes down to which would you prefer to keep your car from rolling, brakes that were designed for it or the transmission?

Civicnoobie

Ok ive been driving around today and surprisingly the "ger ger" groaning sound from the back right tire is gone. Any speed, even when braking no more sound. Even went to a parking lot to test it out.

In reverse it does it still but its quieter than before. I did some experimenting and went in R with the ebrake up, the sound was back and louder but when i take the ebrake off and go in R theres very little or no sound at all. But even if i have the ebrake off and moving in R, if i hit the brakes the sound is back.

So now what do you think?

Maybe the reg brake shoe is dragging? I already have that brake show untightened already by quiet a bit.

It almost sounds like the ebrake is dragging or out of line. BUt if it was then why would i still get the sound when i have the ebrake off and hit my reg brakes?

But i dont know how to adjust them so id have to get my mech to do it.

Like I said, if the cable isnt seized i aint paying to replace it. So I need to find out forsure what it is.

pjb3

If it was me I would disconnect the cable at both ends and see if it moves freely. If it is binding I would replace it. If you don't feel comfortable doing that yourself, it gets expensive paying a mechanic to take things apart just to test them.

Another option would be to jack up the car and remove the tire. Turn the drum by hand and see how it feels. It should turn freely and you should hear no scraping. If it feels OK then apply the parking brake and let it off. If the drum is dragging now, then the brake is not releasing and the cable is sticking, if it turns freely then I would guess the brake is working fine.

It's possible the cable is starting to stick but not siezed. In this case the cable releases but slowly. It's also possible part of the problem is the brake hardware. Drum brakes use springs to pull the shoes back away from the drums. If the springs are weak they may be having a hard time pulling the shoes back, especially if the cable doesn't move freely.

If I remember correctly you replaced the rear brakes just a little while ago and were having problems adjusting them. Could you have adjusted them so that they are not releasing all the way?

As I said I would start by taking the tire off and seeing if the drum turns freely.

Civicnoobie

No scraping as in the drum rubbing against the back plate hub right? So there should be absolutely NO noise at all when circling the drum on the hub? I did this yesterday and there is some light rubbing and you could hear it but it wasnt anything horribly loud. I would consider it light scraping. But the drum still moved easy and smoothly on the hub. but i asked my mech and he said its normal. Is that true? My other drum doesnt do this. But how would a scrapping drum affect the ebrake cable from releasing if the cable is inside? I dont get it.

What i dont get is, the drums i have on now are only a month old. The drums i had proir (OEM and i still have them), the right rear one when on had the scraping too.

Well a few things happened that could very well be signs. 2 months ago I went to take off my ebrake and it locked up. The handle would come down but i would get this "ger ger" groaning sound from the back right tire, same sound as i have now. I took it to my mech and he said the ebrake was rubbing against something (forgot what exactly) so he fixed it, no sound. He said if the sound comes back its a bad ebrake cable then.

Also earlier today when i was in the lot testing it out I would go in R with the ebrake on, then slowly take the ebrake off...my car speed obviously picks up, and then few secs after i had let go of the ebrake, i would feel the car going a bit faster and faster even though i wasnt applying anymore gas to it. This is on a flat road btw.


A mech did my brake pads 2 months ago and it was wierd cause after he put the new brakes in, i didnt get any of these sounds from that tire. It didnt come back until i washed my car one day. Like I said when i wash that wheel well the sound comes back. I think i should hose down my ebrake right cable and see if the sound comes back, if it does then i know forsure the cable is seized.

pjb3

Under normal conditions there should be no scraping with drum brakes. The only two things that could touch the drums are the shoes and the back plate. When the brakes are off, the springs should pull the shoes away
from the drum. If the back plate should not touch but if it scrapes lightly it should not be a problem.

Years ago flexable cables were made from a spiral metal outer case with a stranded wire in the center. The seams in the outer case let moisture in so it was common to put a rubber jacket over it. Nowdays I think that a plastic outer jacket with a stranded metal wire are more common. I say this because corrosion and sticking are far less likely than it used to be. It is still possible for the wire to corrode and bind but it is much less likely.

I don't know what to tell you about washing the wheel causing the problem. It is also possible that when you wash the wheel well you get water inside the brake drum and a light layer of rust forms on the drum. You see this on disk brakes that sit. A layer of light rust forms and the pads scrape it off when you apply the brakes. The only way this would occur is if the shoes are way too close to the drums to begin with.

Civicnoobie

Just got the center console cover off. My right ebrake cable had too much slack so i tightened it. Didnt fix it...though just as quiet as this morning the ger ger groaning is still there. I checked the ebrake and it looked good from the outside, no rust or anyhing, the spring was releasing it fine when playing with the ebrake.

Not sure anymore. Do you think the cable could still be seized but on the inside so i cant see it?

The only thing i could think of is maybe my drum shoe spring needs to be replaced. Or maybe new brake pads cause i have uneven wear on one side of them. But both my rear shoes have uneven wear so if this one side is causng the ger grr scaling sound then the other should too.

Like i said right now im only getting the scaling ger ger groaning sound when braking but i know itll come back in full force eventually, 100x louder and all the time, driving or braking.

Just today i washed that wheel well to see if the sound would come back and surprisingly it didnt! It always does!

When i go home i felt my drum and the right drum felt noticably hotter than the left. Not sure if thats just a cowincadence or a sign.

Maybe my other mech is right, maybe the drum is infact overheating. But it makes no sense cause the past two days that i took this drum off it was locked up solid and hot as hell. Today it came off easy with jus my hands.

And like I said, today i did some more testing in the parking lot. If I drive (whether its D or R) and have the ebrake up (even just a wee bit), the ger ger groaning sound is back. Its the "exact" same sound when "on and in full force" i get all the time, driving or braking at any speed. Right now (because the sounds have taken a vacation), if I have the ebrake off, I only get the sound when braking (and even then its quiet) compared to when its fully active, then it moans like a **** so bad.


This whole entire thing is giving me a damn headache, seriously...I should have converted to disc brakes. **** drums!

Civicnoobie

had my right drum looked at today....again. Inside, the springs, all internals work good no problems.

They said whats happening is when i brake my shoe is being pushed outwards and its rubbing against the inside of the drum. Hence why the drum would sometimes lock up and when they would take it off, there would be lots of brake dust on that part rubbing. They said my shoe isnt seated yet even though the pads are 2 months old. How can it not be seated yet? I did the method that i was suggested, going R at a fast speed (20km) and then slam on your brakes to set it. Do it 3 times.

They did lube up the wheel cylinder and said to try that for now, even though arent wheel cylinders suppose to stay dry inside? im not sure if they lubed the inside or out.

Thye also said the sound has nothing to do with my ebrake cable. The other mech said it is my ebrake cable and this one says it has nothing to do with it. Hmmmm. 2 mechs looked at my ebrake cable after the first one and said it looks good still...and i asked it could seize from the inside without being able to see it. They said possible but rare, whereas the first mech said yes. What gives?

pjb3

It depends on what you mean by uneven wear. If you mean the inside or outside edge of the pad is wearing more, that is incorrect but should even out. If you mean that the top half of the shoe is wearing faster than the bottom half that is more likely normal. The brake drum has a larger diameter than the diamater of the brake shoes. It's impossible for the brake shoe to have even contact and pressure against the drum for the entire pad surface. The shoes pivot at the bottom and are pushed out at the top. The top will make greater contact and wear first. As wear increases at the top the change in shape of the shoes will allow wear at the bottom but it will always be less than at the top.