Sergeant Vic

I'm looking for a Civic for my son. I see an '03 LX two-door advertised as having ABS and traction control. Would that be so?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

no traction control for any 01-05 civics. i dont think even the 06+ has that. 01-05 EX has abs. the dx/lx does not have abs. not a big deal, the abs isnt that great. ive had mine activate maybe 5 times in the past 10 yrs due to purposefully braking hard in the snow.

Brian1037

ABS is completely over rated. ABS does NOT shorten braking distance, it just helps maintain control and prevent the brakes locking up during a hard stop. It's good if you have to brake hard and swerve, but that's it.

Last winter my ABS activated about 20-30 times, and each and every time I had to fight them by releasing the brakes and trying to stop again. In deep snow it's the worst, and sometimes coming up to a stop sign I'd end up thanking my lucky stars there were no other cars because I ended up in the middle of the intersection because of the damned ABS. I'm going to be deactivating them before next winter rolls around.

Knowing how to control your vehicle (especially during panic situations) is 100x better than any electronic system in emergencies. Your car can't and will never be able to see everything that our eyes can. Don't focus on finding the perfect safety vehicle for your son. Teach good driving habits, and defensive driving techniques to avoid bad situations. Just that is more safety than any stupid brand new car with 50 safety features all designed to keep the driver safe by doing the driving for them. The more we rely on technology, the more accidents we will have.

I notice you're in Cali... ABS won't be an issue for you. It's a winter/snow problem.

MindBomber

^I hear you on that Bryan.

Like all mid range production cars ours are engineered to absorb the incompetence of average drivers by adding completely unnecessary systems like ABS, engineering a front brake bias, an understeering suspension and all sorts of other traits that harm performance. If you look at exotic cars (or max's) the brakes are identical front and rear; when people ask me why I spend countless dollars on my car, I tell them I'm just fixing the engineers mistakes.

Back on topic though, no traction control on 8th gens either, although the 06+ Si has a LSD.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Hahaha. Just caught that.

9th gens have Stability Control. It's soon to be mandatory for all cars. Dumbing down continues. EXs are automatics only, from what I hear. Ferarri doesn't offer a manual anymore.

MindBomber

Neither Ferrari or Lamborghini offer manual transmissions anymore, the explination that their engineers give is that a human can never shift as well as their computerized double clutching systems. It makes sense too, the vast majority of humans I encounter are idiots.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

In the future, if the last cars produced with a manual (with no ABS, no traction control) were Chinese manufactured Yugos, I'd be driving one (moded, of course). Screw technology. Let all the retarded people drive the computer controlled cars.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

haha! it just dependes - the OP is buying for hison, so i believe he is still newbie and young. I would still recommend a car without ABS or traction control for that matter. one that learn without can drive a car that have but it will be hard the other way.

Brian1037

Yup even if it's for his son I'd go without ABS and crap like that. Of course there's good technology like air bags and seat belts and laminated windshields that don't interfere with our driving but help keep us safe. Focus on that when buying a car, along with crash test ratings, and you'll find a great car. Everything else is just driving technique and knowledge.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

i dont know about u guys, but my ABS has saved my *** countless times in the rain...especially when it had JUST start raining and the oil form the road rises.


so abs is a must, no matter if u believe if its over rated or not. =]

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

thats a valid point, but when the "oh ****" moment happens, it wont have time to learn.....

recall ur teenage years guys, we use to think we were invincible...

so really, any help will help.

no pun intended.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

abs increases stopping distances tho. the only "benefit" is you can turn the wheel a bit. if you are only trying to stop and its raining, the non abs car will stop faster by quite a bit. tirerack did tests on this a long time ago. on dry road, i usually chirp the tires stopping before the abs even engages (with good grippy tires).

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

i dont know about that. cars with ABS will stop significantly faster than cars without abs in the rain.

if u lock up ur tires in the rain, u will hydroplane and wont be able to stop at all. (thats why they teach u to manually pump ur brakes...but that is made obsolete now a days with cars with ABS)

thats where abs comes in. its re-gains traction and therefore avoids a loss of control.



here's an exert from a passage about abs:


Antilock Brakes Do Work
Regarding the controversy in recent years about the usefulness of ABS, some people argued that the system causes as many accidents as it prevents. But recently, studies demonstrated that the technology is helpful, drivers just need to know the situations in which it works best.

So before learning how to use antilock brakes, drivers should know the effectiveness of the technology. Although the system is useful, it does not help stop the car in all situations. Studies determined that ABS works best at stopping cars (and thus reducing accidents) on roads made slick by rain, snow and ice. But the benefits of the technology in other circumstances are less clear. Studies also indicate that antilock brakes have no advantage in reducing the number of fatal accidents.

One last comment about the usefulness of ABS. Despite the recent controversy, drivers should note that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration continues to recommend the technology to consumers. In addition, many insurance companies give discounts to policyholders with antilock brakes.

http://www.askmen.com/cars/car_tips_60/73_car_tip.html

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

interesting, guess it depends on the driver. i never found the need for it and always get annoyed when it starts working yet my car is still sliding.

MindBomber

Honest question, how often does it rain in Cali?
Did the the ABS save you because your not used to braking on wet roads, sl33py?

I

Sergeant Vic

Hey, thanks for all the (rapid) responses!
The reason I asked about the traction control is because in an online ad for a Civic, the seller stated that the car had t.c.,which brought my wife happiness, because women are big on safety stuff. We've had three Accords and an Odyssey van in the family but I don't really know about Civics, which is why I came to this forum, to hear from the people with the knowledge. I didn't think Civics had t.c. but I wanted to confirm before I brought the wife back to earth. It doesn't matter to me if the car has it.
As far as ABS goes, I put 150,000 miles on a BMW 320i, 120,000 on a VW Super Beetle, and 90,000 on various motorcycles, all without abs. Oh yeah, also 265,000 on an 1986 Accord DX, but the wife drove that one too, so can only claim about half of those miles. I agree, it would be good if my son could learn the ways of the non-abs equipped vehicle but those are getting hard to find. It's too bad you can't turn abs off in the dry months, which in L. A. is most of them!
Sorry for the rambling post; I felt I had to explain where I'm coming from.

Cjski04

haha it doesnt have traction control because the car is fwd, has no torque, no horsepower, lol it will have good control already because ull be going slow. cant wait till i sell my civic and get a gti in a few weeks. finally a car that does 0-60 in under 20 seconds lol

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

you could always pull out the abs fuse

rjones7755

I've been kind of skeptical about ABS but it did save my *** one time when it was raining and an suv cut into my lane...i put the brake to the floor, swerved and kept control. Im not sure if it was the x factor there but it certainly didn't hurt

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

Ha ha ha ha. We do get rain u punk! :P

Just because we get 75 degrees of sunny skies all year long!?

The problem is that it doesn't rain enough so when it does, All the oils and crap that have been accumulating on the road start to rise up due to the rain. So it's actually pretty dangerous and slippery.

And in my defense I drive up to the slopes (I'm a big time boarder) 30+ times a season in the snow and black ice. So I'm pretty farmilar with driving on slippery conditions.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

Perfect example. If u didn't have abs, you could have and most likely would have hydroplaned and lost ur front traction.

Not everyone will be able to remember to pump ur brakes in such unforeseen "oh ****" moments



And I don't even know why ppm don't believe in abs. Just go on YouTube and you'll see side by side comparisons.

Shift-E

I slammed by brakes once in the rain and hydroplaned because I don't have ABS. Came like an inch from hitting the car in front of me. I don't know if ABS would have changed the situation or not but I do know what Sl33py is talking about.

Brian1037

Side by side comparisons just compare two drivers incapable of accident avoidance. The reason that I would feel safe disabling my ABS is because I'm actually very good in panic emergency situations and not only would I pump the brakes (if needed to) but I would also swerve into the right direction and maintain control of the car. Of course some situations are just completely unavoidable though, but the chances of having an unavoidable accident don't justify keeping ABS in the must more common avoidable accident situations for me. I've proven this to myself time and time again. Sometimes because of the other driver, and sometimes because I was texting (i know... but I don't do it anymore. Too many close calls). I don't mean to elevate myself above anyone else, but ABS is good for those who just let go of the wheel and scream like a lunatic when a squirrel is crossing 500 meters ahead of them, but for everyone else, it's no good.

I guess it's really a matter of opinion and what you've already experienced on the road (as well as you're climate). If ABS has saved you once, of course you'll swear by it. However in my case ABS has not only never saved me, it has also caused many close calls for me last winter.

In rereading my post it seems weird that I've had so many close calls (especially in just 1 year). It's because I drive A LOT. My school is 40 mins away each direction, and I'm constantly traveling into Montreal which is nearly an hour away. School forces me to drive in the early morning when people are always in a rush, and also at night when people are so impatient. Also Montreal traffic is horrible, and the roads are even worse.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Hahaha!
Guess bottomline is: depend who is driving and how much one is willing to take oil or black ice (pumping will just... Help nothing in these 2 cases) maybe not even abs if you lcok all 4 wheels -after all, abs depend on wheel speed differential and all braking comes down to tire traction in the end

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

haha yea... an alternative to ABS is to keep a safe distance with the far in front of you...rain, snow or shine....

i think that's even more effective than ABS.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah just drive carefully lol. i have to admit tho i like using brakes firmly. no granny braking barely touching the pedal.