RSKtakR

So I have been reading through these forums and thought I would register to post. I have a 01 civic EX coupe with 214k, manual trans that I just bought. Bone stock, never raced or beat on and was owned by a guy in his 40's, he bought the car from a dealership about 6mos prior to selling it to me. Car had the timing belt and water pump swapped 3k miles ago, along with getting the head reworked due to the timing belt failure that ruined some valves apparently. I have all the receipts and documentation for all parts replaced and labor. I have put new spark plugs in it, cleaned the EGR, cleaned the PCV valve, there are ZERO leaks on this motor, NOTHING from the drain plug, or ANYWHERE else on the motor. The compression ranges from 160-185psi across all four cylinders, the car doesn't smoke, it is driven 100 miles a day with 3k-3500 rpm being about the highest rpm it sees probably (my wife drives the car). On the service records it keeps mentioning that there is oil consumption and next to nothing showing on the dipstick often. Oil being used was a synthetic blend 5w-20. Car is currently getting 34.3 mpg's on only hwy but its lots of hills with the AC on at times I'm sure, and not really a flat commute at all. I pulled the new plugs last night that I have just replaced that have probably 1000 miles on them and they look good, no oil or anything. and the car doesn't smoke whatsoever.

So my problem is that this engine DRINKS oil like its going out of style!! I haven't changed the oil yet because it wasn't due for it just yet, but I keep having to put in about 1 qt every 200 miles.. yes that says TWO HUNDRED miles.. I am putting a fully synthetic 5w-20 oil in, and after reading here I have decided to just change the oil all together and start with the Valvoline max life 5w-30 high mileage blend (or a conventional) and a good filter (based on what I have read here). I would like to try adding the oil additive as well. my questions are:

-What additive has been used that ACTUALLY worked and is still working? Does it need to be added more than just once?

-Do I put the additive in with the current oil BEFORE I change the oil with the new max life oil? I have always heard bad things about those additives and I have never run them.

-Lastly does anyone know of a good outcome outcome with a change to the 5w30 max life and the additive? Did the oil consumption stop?

ANY recommendations would be great.

Poopies

iTrader: (4)

Wow, what well though-out post! Welcome to the forums!

***HOW DOES YOUR COOLANT LOOK?***
1qt/200mi is HORRIBLE; something is amiss. Now for the answers:
1.) I use LC20 in my oil and FP Plus in my fuel (both by LubeControl), Amsoil full synthetic. Many here would say it's overkill and a waste of money, but I don't really give a damn . LubeControl recommends adding 1 oz of the LC20 every 1,000 miles, and 1.5 oz FP Plus every fill-up and I do just that. My engine is running like new.
2.) I always put it in after I change the oil. I doubt it hurts either way since it's gonna get sloshed around when the engine is on. I put the fuel additive in first so it mixes while I fill.
3.) I've heard changing to a higher viscosity oil helps negate some of the burning. I don't have any experience with that though.

Oh, and using synthetic oil exacerbates whatever worn seals you may have, since the molecules can fit themselves into smaller spaces using science. This would also be a reason you are using oil.

mikey1

1quart for 200 miles? holy crap, that is more then a 2-stroke engine would burn

i have never in my 20+ years of "wrenching" heard of an engine consuming that amount of oil, and still run normal, its almost impossible to believe if its not leaking oil, holy crap, if it was burning that much it would surely be smoking out the exhaust,

mine burns about 1/8 quart in 5,000 miles!!!

are you sure you are reading the dipstick correctly?

taking oil readings on level ground?

pull your timing cover, maybe your timing belt/area is covered in oil

wow im at a loss here

RSKtakR

Coolant looks nice and green, no milky color, no oily residue anywhere, and no over heating since the head gasket was just changed out not long ago. I have read about people running 5w30 NON synthetic all the way up to 10w30 non synthetic, at the most a synthetic blend.. however I am not brave enough to run the 10w30, I am in the Kansas city Missouri area and it gets cold as **** here in winter. SO unless anyone tells me otherwise I plan on changing the oil this weekend and putting in an additive.. which additive though? I read about the CD2 and was planning on running that with this oil change (unless you guys instruct me otherwise) so then I will end up putting 3qts of the Valvoline 5w30 max life and the 1qt of the CD2 or whatever additive all at the same time then right? Go ahead and add the additive with EVERY oil change as well?

I REALLY hope its just something stupid because the car runs great and gets a consistent 34mpg's but MAN that oil loss is ridiculous.. It may not be exactly 1 qt every two hundred miles but its quite a lot more then the normal 1qt per 1k miles that I read about. I cant think of ANYTHING else other then bad rings at this point, and the converter is catching all the oil/smoke so its not seen. I think there has been one time I checked the oil when the car was on a slight decline, but the past couple times have been on my level garage floor.

RSKtakR

ya I have been wrenching on cars about as long as you and I have NEVER had a car go through this much oil.. even Mustangs that had to much nitrous sprayed to them and the I KNEW the rings were shot.. so shot that I had to clean/replace the spark plugs every weekend lol.. Cant really read the dipstick wrong can you? when the oil is at or below the bottom hole or not showing at all its pretty low.. There is also a CE light on, I haven't taken it to get the code checked yet, but I bet its safe to assume that its from the low oil pressure. After I put oil in it the first time (refilled it) the light went off within 50 miles. If there is oil all over behind the timing cover it would leak out somewhere I would think, not to mention it is kind of hanging off down around the crank pulley from when the timing belt and head work was done.. im telling you there are ZERO leaks under this car, and I got under it again this passed Monday just to make sure, alllllll clean and dry. I have also pulled the vtec solenoid off to make sure it was working correctly and that the screen was clean just as a preventative maintenance I guess before I knew about the oil consumption issue.

ezone

If the code is for VTEC P1259 it's probably due to low oil. Erase and keep the oil full.
Oil consumption can cause cat deterioration too P0420.


What did the old plugs look like?
What do the new plugs look like?
No deposits? No white crustys? No oily mess?

A cat can hide a lot of smoke.
Most people can't see oil smoke in the rear-view mirror, you almost have to follow the car while someone flogs it to see blue.


I'll guess it's rings anyway.
Most likely the oil rings are stuck (typical),
and somewhat less likely the pistons were damaged from bending some valves- pinched the top rings?
Maybe ring gaps got lined up?
Maybe worn out, it's got over 200k on it ----any clue about air filtration quality all its life? Oil quality and services prior to the last owner?

Before I pull the head off to inspect cylinder walls and probably pull pistons to do a ring job , I might try filling cylinders with (your carbon cleaning product of choice) for some period of time to attempt to soak carbon loose from the oil ring grooves.
Search for Northstar stuck rings fixes and Northstar oil consumption fixes to get some ideas?

Slower step is to choose oil that can help clean the carbon buildup from within the crankcase side. My GFs Saturn was burning a quart every 500, I started using our Honda oil in it a few years ago and now it's up to 1500 or more between quarts. It's taken a lot of miles to get this far, but it's taken zero effort on my part to do it.


Now you know why it's been for sale LOL

RSKtakR

Today we changed the oil with max life 5w30, and CD2 oil additive. I took the car out driving last night, and noticed at night when I car was behind me and I downshift to 4th gear and hit the gas there is smoke coming from the exhaust, so as we all thought/knew the rings are bad and letting oil get burned. I also got the code read for me.. P0420, so of course the bad rings have led to the code for the cat being shot now too. Weird thing tho.. last week the light went off after we filled the gas tank up and the same code is shot when the gas cap isn't tight enough too I guess.. I got the code cleared, and the light came on back in about 30 miles lol.. So I HOPE the thicker oil and the additive will reduce the oil consumption..

ezone

Higher RPM smoke = rings.

Can't say for sure because you don't KNOW what that code was at that time.
Cat code P0420 is very different from EVAP codes P1456 and P1457.
Check the code again just to be certain.

Don't hold your breath....Old school thinking doesn't always work in modern engines.

Thicker oil can increase consumption as the low-tension piston rings are less effective at scraping it down off the cylinder walls.

Also, the thicker (cheaper base) oils tend to burn off on the pistons and leave carbon deposits in the ring grooves, further complicating the stuck rings issues.


HTH

RSKtakR

.......ok, the only code that showed up in the ECU today was the P0420 Catalyst Efficiency below threshold (bank 1).. and the autozone guy said something about the gas cap, but we all know they don't really know lots.

greaaaaaat... How long will it take to see results of this oil change with the treatment? I read that the results kind of vary.. if nothing else I will switch it to straight conventional, and just drive it since that oil is cheaper.. the car doesn't see high revs, we keep it under 3500 (in 5th gear going 65-70 on the hwy) for the most part and ALWAYS shift before 3k rpms. filled the gas tank up today and its getting 35mpgs, and the plugs still look grey/white with no oil deposit's.

ezone

They sell parts. Everything they do to 'help' you is designed around selling more parts.


I heard they give prospective employees an aptitude test. If you know too much about cars, you can't get the job LOL.

Check the oil with every fill up, keep an eye on it regularly.
Run it til it's time to change oil again, see how it goes.

I really don't know of anything that gives immediate results without a lot of work though.
Another member here said he was adding a little bit of C rated(?) oil with his oil changes and reported good results. I haven't seen him on here in a while though.


With my GFs Saturn it's taken several years to get results...but zero effort on my part.

Worse choice IMO. (I mean the straight weight is worse. Conventional oil is just fine by me.)

Does it get cold there? (yes) You still want a 5w oil in it.
I might even run 0W20 in it.

How long have you had these plugs in it? White or gray ash film or deposits would be from oil.

RSKtakR

So just stick with the 5w20-30 synthetic blend you think would be best? Im in the Kansas City Missouri area, and ya it get cold here in winter 20-30 degrees sometimes.. These plugs have been in about 1k miles IF that, plug1 or first pic is with a flash, plug2 or 2nd pic is no flash.

ezone

If it's cheaper I'd use conventional oil. No need for synthetic unless you like it.

I would not run a straight weight oil.


You got the cheaper regular plugs, I see.
Kinda looks like the ground electrode has a little powdery white crust on it? No matter, just get more whenever they collect enough buildup to cause misfire.

RSKtakR

Ya I just got the stock replacements because I didn't know what the problem was.. the spark plugs that I pulled out were black and had 4 ground electrodes on them?

What is "straight weight" oil ? I think I used that term incorrectly before in this thread.. When I said that I was meaning just a NON synthetic oil.. like a synthetic blend or just a NON synthetic altogether (5 or 10w30 NON synthetic/NON synthetic blend) ?

bsmiley

Oil info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
Multi viscosity oil changes its thickness depending on temperature. Honda recommends 5w-20 or 0w-20 depending on climate. So Straight weight is say 30 with no Viscosity index improvers.

I have been using Pennzoil or Castrol conventional oil 5w-20 from Walmart. I change it every 7500 miles.

RSKtakR

ok well ya I miss spoke/understood then.. I was planning on running the 5w30 Valvoline maxlife synthetic blend. Didn't know if that was the best to run when it starts getting cold out.. the 5w20 full synthetic seemed like water it was so thin.

ezone

Sounds like the wrong plugs....DangerZones' finest.

What bsmiley said.

Straight weight oil is "single-grade engine oil".

ezone

0w20 is "thinner" than that, and it's approved by Honda for use in that engine.

RSKtakR

which would be better in winter time im guessing since its thinner than the 5w20?

bsmiley

I know what you mean. 5w-20 seems shockingly thin. 0w-20 is acceptable in some climates but 5w-20 is advised in all climates.

I am in Virginia Beach and the dealer offered me 0w-20 and said its recommended in this region. I don't buy my oil from the dealer. Nothing wrong with it, but Honda is an engine mfg, not an oil mfg. Walmart and Costco don't carry 0w-20, so I just use 5w-20, which is still recommended in this region.

ezone

IMO yes, plus it's easier on the battery and starter when it's frigid out. It can take a lot of power to crank an engine with thick oil in the lube system. (fill it with 20w50 and see what happens in the winter LOL)

Plus, 0w20 oil (and 5w20 too) should help with slowly cleaning carbon deposits from the ring grooves,if that's the real problem. (It won't happen overnight though.)

If the rings are simply worn from mileage and abrasion, it may not help.



Check this post I made some time ago: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4667884

RSKtakR

I think I will just leave the Valvoline maxlife 5w30 in for now with the additive and see how it does, although I don't expect much and since winter is right around the corner, I might just switch to 0w20 and see what happens next.. not sure if I should go the fully synthetic, synthetic blend or just a regular 0w20 (NON synthetic) oil if I can find any. If this car is going to go through oil like crazy for a while I don't want to be putting in $6 per qt oil if its just going to burn so quickly. Any other suggestions? Thanks for you guys help/suggestions btw.

ezone

Since the manufacture of 0w20 begins with high grade base stocks, I don't believe there is any "conventional" version out there. It's all labeled as synthetic or semi-synthetic AFAIK.






If it's gonna burn oil like you own a refinery anyway......
most people would just dump in the cheapest stuff they can find....
But it normally doesn't help the problem get any better.....

If you are gonna keep the car, I'd try to make it better.
My usual goal is to (help with) solving the problems.

RSKtakR

I want to just keep the car and do what is best as far as the cheapest route when adding oil (type of oil) since it's just burning it while not making the problem any worse until I pickup another long block and then have it completely rebuilt and swap them out in a weekend. Since I know the oil is just going out the exhaust and I'm expecting the additive to probably not work, I would like to just run the cheapest/best oil for the current problem.

usajags84

I just cant believe the consuption on this car....
Have you taken off the valve cover and checked for sludge or any other sigs of neglect. I would also try a valve adjustment, and replace valve seals.

I would also use a little marvel mystery oil with the next round of oil additions, just in case there is some carbon causing the problems with the rings, I just haven't seen many hondas burn oil unless they have been really neglected or run low on oil.

Note I am a back yard self taught mechanic, MMO is what i us on some old farm trucks and equipment. I imagine it would help with the removal of carbon to condition rings.

RSKtakR

I have not because I figured it would be pretty clean since the head was just completely rebuilt with new valves, so I would assume that the valve guides were also replaced since it appears to have a new head gasket, and new valve cover gasket as well as the plug on the side of the head is new and I have all the documentation/receipts from the shop that did all the head work. I'm not sure that looking to see if there are sludge under the valve cover would help anything other than just look for signs of neglect (which is very possible) although I think that the short block just needs to be rebuilt simply because of the now 215k miles on it. If I pull the valve cover off will I need to replace the valve cover gasket or is it reusable?

I might give that a try next as well, however I need to find some literature/instructions on how to safely run it.. I have read/heard of horror stories from people doing that all wrong lol.. I do most all of my own mechanic work and have all the tools/garage as well, but I'm a OHV v8, DOHC v8, turbo charged DOHC, old v8 guy, and don't know much about these Honda motors and what will drive the current problem into overdrive to make things worse when it comes to rings etc.

ezone

I'd expect the head to have been cleaned thoroughly at the machine shop.
I'd reuse it, as long as it is still pliable.

RSKtakR

I have the $995 bill/receipt for the headwork that was done. Aparently there was some piston/valve interference when the timing belt let go 4k miles ago.

ezone

Yeah, bending valves is almost guaranteed when the timing belt lets go.

4k is not long enough to have any sludge buildup. Hell, with the high quality oils we use at the shop these days, I've seen engines go well over 20k on the oil without sludge. Couldn't do that 20 years ago, and probably still can't do that on cheap 10w30 now either.

usajags84

Oops missed that part I wonder if there was some unresolved bottom end damage not just rings?

Ezone couldn't he take a block from a non vtech from a bone yard and use his head??

mikey1

at this point i would advise you to just ditch this car, in my opinion its no longer worth the time, hassle or money,

put the money you would be spending on repairs toward a new(er) car