mikey1

i have an 05 with about 130,000 miles, i have always done regular oil and filter changes with a standard but brand name oil....would it be worth while to go to a synthetic oil at this point? or is it not recommended or would it be a waste?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Im a firm believer that synthetic oil is a total waste of money... I go with a synthetic blend like Valvoline Maxlife and it does just fine. The problem with this question is that everyone has their opinion and will voice it. There are some that are more knowledgeable about oil than others, however I have personally not seen the benefits of synthetic

The questions to ask yourself are:

How often do you change your oil?
If you do oil changes every 3000 miles synthetic is a total waste of money. It is designed to be run for much longer than just your 3000 miles, so you can actually push it upwards to 7000 which is great if you don't drive a whole lot. It means you can push your oil changes to a year for some drivers. So the 70 dollar oil changes suddenly become worth it. One thing I will recommend is that if you do go 7000 miles on oil change is to change your oil filter halfway, it tends to get plugged with sludge and crap and can restrict oil flow to the engine.

Do you feel comfortable running 7000 miles inbetween oil changes?
I use a synthetic blend and I still run it anywhere from 5-7000 miles. I know its too much but I haven't noticed any kind of oil related troubles with my engine, and it has ~130k miles on it too.

Synthetic oils tend to leak easier... I'm not totally sure why but some people have to switch back from synthetic because it finds leaks or makes leaks bigger than they were before. Probably because it flows easier.

Generally your engine will not suffer dramatically from conventional oil. It will die long before oil related issues from something else like coolant problems or actually running low on oil. Which are far more harmful than using conventional oil. Now, on to everyone elses opinions!

Stock 99

^ what he said

I've owned my civic for just over a year now and it's got about 110 000 miles on it. When I bought it I asked a friend of mine who had been a Honda mechanic for 15 years if I should use synthetic and his answer was pretty much identical to BlueEM2's.

I inadvertently put a synthetic blend in on my last oil change and I haven't noticed any kind of difference good or bad.

ezone

I'll agree with some of the above. Not all of it. I have thoughts on the subject, but they are gonna look all scatterbrained if I post all of them here, I can't type fast enough for it to make sense to others so I'll keep it sort of short.

3k oil changes are far too frequent for the majority of recent cars on the road these days.
Some manufacturers were specifying 7500 miles over 20 years ago.
Some manufacturers were still specifying 3k as recently as 05 (my sisters' Mopar van) and probably still are now.
Some cars need even more frequent than that.
Some engines have serious sludge problems, that might have been helped/reduced by using an oil spec more suited to their driving conditions. Soccer mom conditions are harsh for an engine.
Driving conditions and oil specs should dictate the oil change frequency more than an arbitrary number that the fast oil change industry dreamed up to be their standard for all cars.
Oil consumption throws another wrench in the mix.
Fresh oil "flash off" contaminates catalytic converters. TOO frequent oil changes can poison a cat. Some other manufacturers have issues with that.

One problem is: No "appliance user" is capable of checking and adding oil to save their lives. 3k is fine for some because they can't handle the responsibility any other way. Some engines don't make it that far.
My sisters van uses a quart per 1000. She never checked it and went almost 5k.....guess what happened to it.
My GFs Saturn burns a quart every 500. I'm not about to really fix it. She tells me at every other fill up and I add a quart.
My lowrider turns the oil black by 1000. I change it about every 700-1000 miles.
My Buick gets the oil changed once per year, whether it needs it or not.
My Hog gets 5k oil changes.
My new Civic? Not enough miles to tell yet.

OP: Look in your owners manual.
(Clue: Page 149 in the manual for a 4 door, or page 153 in a 2 door manual)....
What does it say for the oil change interval?
"Every 10,000miles (16,000 km) or every 1 year, whichever comes first".
That's ten thousand miles. (On oil that meets the proper specifications, mystery specs for most regular people).
(Also note, this is not the severe service schedule.)

Nowadays, the cars use the maintenance minder to dictate service intervals.
The system cannot judge the oil condition directly, it is based on a model.
The oil used in the engine has to meet the specs used in the design model. (ILSAC GF-5 and HTO-06 are some of the current specs for the Hondas.)
Anything less can render the engine a paperweight in a shortened time.
The monitor watches how you drive and adjusts the life index to meet the conditions.
I see the cars go anywhere from 4k to over 12k, depending on how they are driven, before it says time for an oil change.

got2run5

I actually noticed a difference when I switched to synthetic. The car ran smoother, seemed to have more pep, and a slight (1-2 mpg) increase in mileage. That was with my old car (01 civic) with 150k miles and I still use it in my new car (01 civic) with 90k miles. I have never had any leaks and the previous owner of my first car beat the crap out of it. I would NEVER let my car go even near 10k miles without a change. Even if some people say that synthetic doesn't matter, you can try for yourself. At walmart the 5 quart jug of mobil 1 full synthetic is $23 I believe. I'm a strong believer that changing your oil frequently is the single best thing you can do for your engine. For normal oil I would change it every 3000 miles and with synthetic I go 5000. For 5 quarts of valvoline normal motor oil ($16 wmart) you would pay .0053 cents per mile (3000 mile oil change). With mobil 1 synthetic, you would pay .0046 cents per mile (5000 mile oil change). So it's actually cheaper to put synthetic oil in your car assuming you change your own oil.

ezone

City driving, I wouldn't either.

But

If the driving was all highway miles, and the oil still appears to be some color lighter than BLACK, I probably would. And I have.

My ex used to run the interstates all the time. If the car got started, it usually ran at least 100 miles. I would let her oil go 10k+ regularly, but that also depended heavily on the visual condition of the oil..... I checked it frequently to keep an eye on it.
This was done to an 84 Mazda 626 (200k), an 86 Buick Century (150k), and a 91 Mazda 929 (200k+). No engine lubrication failures, and the first 2 of them rusted away before the engines had a chance to die. Mostly done on Kendall conventional 10w30, which was readily available at the shop I was in at the time.

I am the one that would have been paying and doing all the work if my judgement turned out to be wrong. What I do to my own cars may or may not work for everyone else though.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

got2run5

That's fine if you are comfortable with that. Didn't mean to bash you for anything. I'm just saying that I noticed a difference between synthetic and regular oil and that when it comes to the time between oil changes I would much rather be safe than sorry. I don't trust myself to be a good judge of how dirty my oil is. I figure that in the long run oil changes aren't that expensive, so to me it's worth it.

ezone

Sorry if I sounded that way. I've been turning wrenches for a living since 1985. I know I have more experience than most, so I think I can judge for myself. But at the same time, I know that it's certainly not laboratory accurate by any means.


"Thinner" oil will definitely gain you some gas mileage (if the engine will handle it).
"Thinner" oil reduces parasitic drag inside the engine.
That's why cars have gone from using 10w40 to 10w30 to 5w30 to 5w20, and now we are using 0w20 in almost all of the new Honda cars.
0w oils are "synthetic".

"Thinner" oil also can help reduce oil consumption.
"Thick" oil can lead to carbon deposit buildup in the ring grooves, and that leads to oil consumption.
10w30 is one of the cheapest oils to make, and uses the lowest quality base stocks of all the conventional oils. Therefore it is promoted the most, because it generates the most profit for the oil companies.

In my moms old 86 Accord, dad said it gained a couple MPG just by switching from 10w30 to 5w30.

The factory rep said Honda did a mileage test in an Insight: Started with the correct 0w20, then worked their way up to 20w50. By the time they got there, the car had dropped over 100 miles per tank of gas.



Note: There is a lot more to oil viscosity index ratings than me just saying "thinner" or "thicker", that's why the quote marks.

got2run5

That's interesting. What would the disadvantages to running 0w20 be?

ezone

Hell if I know. I'm not the engineer.

The way I understand it, it shouldn't be used in an engine that doesn't have an all roller valvetrain. It offers less protection than some other oil specs for splash-lubricated, high pressure sliding parts.

The way I understand it, it shouldn't be used in engines designed for 5w30 or 10w30, because the oil clearances in the bearings are too large to use this oil. There wouldn't be enough of an oil film cushion, so there could be metal to metal contact with such a "thin" oil.
Oil pressure also could be lower than necessary for long engine life.

I have not heard from official channels if we can use 0w20 in an engine designed for 5w20, and we have had customers ask about doing this (0w20 oil is promoted rather heavily at the dealership because all the new cars use it)..... I don't want to assume the risk for doing that to a customer car.
But I'm sure it has happened at some point.
OTOH, it is still a 20w oil full of modifiers so my GUESS is it would be ok. Don't quote me on that.

I was told it was OK to use 5w20 in engines that called for 5w30 back to about 93 or 94ish model years.
The 10w30 cars can use 5w30.



How's that sound?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

0W20 are just weights. 0 is the cold weight and 20 is the warm weight. So, the oil will be thinner when you start the car cold with a 0w20 rather than a 5w20. Which means it will reach where it needs to faster, but still be the same consistency when warm as a 5w20. That's about it. However you don't want the oil to be too thin because it doesnt lubricate as well.

mikey1

lots of great info, thanks for all of the replies....

my car is a basic family car and gets both city and highway driving, i guess i would estimate 60/40 (city/highway)....

my g/f purchased the car new, its never been abused or driven "hard"....

i am in canada and i believe my manual says change every 8,000km (if my memory is correct)....i have been changing around every 6000-7000km....

when i drain the oil it still looks pretty clean it is far from black....i have just been using a standard 5w20 quaker state, or mobil, or castrol, kind of whatever is on sale and of course changing the filter also....

my engine doesn't seem to burn any oil between changes at all, its still always full....and it doesn't leak any oil either....

so i guess i will just stick to what is working....

it is our only vehicle so i want to take care of it as best as possible....

i appreciate all the replies

Stock 99

That would seem to be the logical thing to do. I'm in pretty much the same boat. It didn't realize the 7 gens had such a higher mileage between oil changes until I started reading this thread. If you really want to get into the mechanics of oil then this is the resource...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

I did alot of reading here when I was trying to make my decisions about dino vs synthetic and the differences in oil filters.

0w20 is actually 0 weight at 212f and 20 weight at 80f or
5w30 is 5 weight @ 212f and 30 weight @ 80f

It took me along time to wrap my head around that. So in Canadian winter (below 32f) oil is actually much thicker then 30 weight (5w30). This is why they say most engine wear occurs at start up. Synthetics are supposed to help reduce this because of their synthetic make up and the fact you can use thinner oils without the same viscosity break down as dinos at higher temps.

My 6th gen recommends changes at 6000kms and my mechanic said the the price of synthetics was just too high to warrant it.

ezone gives great examples in his previous posts of the different factors that influence why and when you should change your oil.

great thread!

Stock 99

sorry guys! I read through the bobistheoilguy thing again and I've still got it wrong!

read it for yourself for the proper explanation. Feel free to bag on my ignorance at will

ezone

Didn't I already say it's really confusing? Maybe I said on another thread. It IS confusing. I'm in the trade and it's still confusing.

You just hit on the viscosity stuff, you didn't even get near specs, either. SAE (which is nearly worthless), ACEA, ILSAC, and manufacturer specific specifications that go above and beyond those ratings. The term "synthetic" is nearly meaningless in North America too.

Some oil companies lie and deceive. Wording on the bottles is intentionally misleading.
Some companies are more on the up-and-up.

A European spec 5w30 and a typical N.A./Asian spec 5w30 are completely different oils. A Euro oil won't keep one of our engines alive for very long. Likewise, putting our oil into a Euro engine can be a death warrant in short order.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

I'll put it this way. Any brand name conventional oil will protect your engine for ~ 5000 miles well enough to make your car last if the rest of your maintenance is done!!!

mikey1

thanks for all the replies it is much appreciated, i guess i will just stick with the oils that i have been using....

my other question is about oil filters, do you really get what you pay for? or are they all pretty much the same?

i normally just buy a generic aftermarket brand from the auto parts store where i buy my oil, the filter costs about 5 bucks i think....

the last time i was there i saw another filter for about 15 bucks....if my memory is correct i think it was a Mobil 1 filter....

i guess my question is....are more expensive filters like this really worth the extra money?

got2run5

I recall a study being done a bit ago and it seemed purolators were the best for the price. They cost like $1-2 more than the cheap ones.

I don't recall the source I got the info from, but I'm sure a simple google search would help.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

If you can find them Wix make awesome filters for only a couple dollars more expensive than your knock off brands. This topic has been killed on this forum and you can learn a lot by just searching

johndeerebones

Napa's house brand is made by WIX, their house oil is made by Valvoline. Most filters are ok though. The only one that used to come apart is Fram. I think they got it fixed, but I still won't use em... Like he said above though. Conventionals will protect to atleast 5000 now days. Oil technology has come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years. The reason sythetics are better is a couple fold... It doesn't have the same thermal breakdown or coking. Also on a molecular level synthetics are engineered to have circular molecules. Dino oils have alot more sharp cornered molecules. Also synthetics don't "shear" the same so they have a better film over bearings. I wouldn't use Mobil 1 anything in reference to the above post, no offense. I worked on Cadillacs and the manual calls for Mobil 1 on them. It was a cam eater big time on the 3.6 V6s, OHV. I also worked on a guys jeep wrangler (2004) with the 4.0 inline. It had a flat cam lobe, that is cam in block too (the cadi engine is ohc). It had 19000 miles on it too. I won't knock other synthetics though. If you have a race car absolutely put synthetics in it. If you have a rice eater that was made for mileage, not HP it is a waste of money. With that said though, if for instance you add a turbo, yes you will definitely help your turbo out by having oil that is resistant to coking. Turbos are hot. As for everyone else dino oil is fine. Like said before, keep it changed is the most important thing. I have had several engines apart that had well over 200000 miles on them, some over 300000. All of them were clean except the ones that tend to "stretch" their oil changes often. That is not to say if you usually change at 3k and let it go to 3.5k your engine is gonna self destruct. On the other hand though people that regularly stretch in out to 10k usually have alot of "sludge" in their engines.

pjb3

This raises the question is it the oil or the engine that was the problem. My guess is the engines would have failed with any oil and since Mobil1 was used more than any other oil it is associated with the failure.

Years ago Penzoil had a reputation for sludge among mechanics. I asked a friend who was an engineer at a refinery and his opinion was Penzoil was as good as any other oil. The problem was that Penzoil was the best selling and most common oil so when people failed to take car of their cars and sludge developed Penzoil got the blame.

I prefer and use Castrol Syntec 0w-30 so I'm not trying to convert anyone to a specific brand. I would point out that when it comes to oil the most knowledgable people on the web are at bobistheoilguy and in a poll of their members the second most used oil was Mobil1.

johndeerebones

You are right to an extent, the engines + the oil can be to blame, I am not willing to take that chance. You are right too about Pennzoil. I have had several engines apart that were sludged up, they used it. Also, these are the same people that don't change their oil like they should. I am not gonna blame Pennzoil, in fact the oil probably WASN'T at all to blame there. Any oil that isn't changed correctly makes sludge, end of story. Like said above, short trips are murder on oil. Involves alot of moisture in the oil. I wouldn't take the chance on it either, but I have had several Pennzoil engines apart that were clean too. Lack of servicing is the main culprit....
You are right though, bobistheoilguy knows his stuff...

pjb3

My feeling is that anybody willing to ask what oil they should use will probably never have a problem. If they care enough to ask my guess is they are doing at least the recomended oil changes and for most engines with any oil that is sufficient.

I tend to select oil based on ACEA ratings with my preference being an oil with a A5/B5 and A3/B3 rating. The only Mobil1 oil to have that rating that I am aware of is their 0w-40 European oil. I have used it in an air cooled lawn tractor but not a car.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

that's for who lives in the east coast and all the hurricanes passing through

kbook

You re pro-european : ) I was a big fan of 0W-30 when it was made in Germany (a.k.a German Castrol or GC at Bob is the oil guy) ei ei.

People are obsessed with that green oil. However, 0W-30 in D17 made the engine so quiet and... was harder to get my car to move : ) I used it for 6000 mi and I switched it to Mobil 5W-20

Well, to answer about Synthetic vs Regular? I would say I tend to do synthetic in the winter since I don't drive more than 5 mi/trip so the engine doesn't get hot that long so their might be lots of condensation going back into the oil so...

Regular Oil with good additives should take care of those problems.
Synthetic Oil with good additives should take care of those problems.

If assumed that they contain the same additives Synthetic doesn't contain or contain small amount of impurities such as wax and the real synthetic has higher melting points and can stand more heat.

However, don't change synthetic oil at 3000mi.

pjb3

I guess I'm pro-European in the sense that I prefer the ACEA ratings. I started with Castrol 0w-30 about six years ago because at the time few oils could touch it. My feeling is that other oils have closed the gap but it is still an excellent oil. During the summer Autozone usually runs a special on Castrol and Mobil1 at 5qts plus an oil filter for $30 so I pick up what I need for a year. The bottom line is I get an oil change with an oil that meets the most stringent ACEA grades for about $25 that will easily go 7,500 miles.

By the way Castrol 0w-30 is still made in Germany. As far as the Civic and the D17, I can't say I see a lot of difference between the Castrol and other oils. I will admit I have never used a Xw-20 weight so that may be a factor.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

oh fk me another oil thread

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

^Yes but I'm entertaining it. I mean, it's either been a while since we have had an oil thread or I've just been gone for too long.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

you do an excellent job

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

That is because you are prob NOT using real synthetic oil. Oil companies have found loop holes in the US legislature to call regular oil "full synthetic". And that goes for 99% of the oil on the shelves. Unless you ate paying $15 a quart for amsoil, redline, or motul, you are not getting a true group IV synthetic oil.