Civicnoobie

After some braking, its just a bit off center. When i remove the drum i have to manually re-centre the shoes. Push the brake pedal few times, it goes off centre again by a bit. The auto adjustor in it is new but aftermarket (Carlson brand). Im thinking maybe getting an OEM auto adjustor instead?

Or perhaps getting a new backing plate from the wreckers? Honda cant get them aynmore they said. Im thinking maybe one of the metal ridges on my backing plate that hugs the shoes are out of position or just getting old and unable to hold the shoes perfectly centred.

The wheel doesnt lock up but if i jack the car, spin the back wheels, push the brake pedal couple times, then release and spin the wheel again, it seems to spin less freely.

civicbyrc

Does the wheel lock up. Why are you concernd about the rear brakes being centerd?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Hmm.. your not using your e-brake while going in reverse are you? It seems like a stupid question but I've done it, rolling backwards and pulling the E brake when I wanted to stop. Caused a **** ton of noise and some not so nice things to happen back there.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

hmm really? i use my ebrake ALL the time when reversing, and while driving. pretty much any time i back out and the car moves too fast in R on its own (auto). so i feather the ebrake to slow the car down and then stop it and shift to D so i dont have to hold or press the pedal. ive never had any issues with my old or new drum brakes doing that many times a day. id much rather use the ebrake than the regular brakes because then i save a bunch of wear on the pads and rotors. in fact my right hand is usually holding the brake all the time lol

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Well.. that depends on how fast your going.. A friend explained to me that shoes are only designed to be used in one direction .. This made no sense to me because the shoes get used when you apply the regular brakes reversing. However there must be a difference when reversing. I was probably going faster than you when I had my rear brake detonation hahaha... Appareantly my shoes came into contact with the drums hard and caused everything to go stupid. This was shortly after I changed my rears so I may have screwed something up or its possible they werent adjusted yet.

Civicnoobie

Because im still getting the noise from the rear brakes. Right now, 3.5 weeks after getting both drums rounded, the noise is starting to "slowly" come back. When I had the drums machined, and i brake there was absolutely no noise from the back. But just like before, a week after it comes back. It starts off with a "ssssshhhhh" scrubbing like sound from the back right drum when I brake (no matter how light or hard), then it starts to put out a dragging like sound eventually and then it gets louder and louder till you can hear it from 10ft outside the car. Then the left rear drum will do it too eventually.

The sound is relative to car/wheel speed, so its not any of my brake lines, its in the brake assembly itself.

Best way to replicate the sound with being as close to the wheel as possible (to get up close) is to jack up the car, pull up the ebrake a couple notches, spin the rear wheels. It seems when you spin the wheel, theres a high point where the wheel will slow down a bit. Again this is only when the brakes are on. Thats why im thinking maybe putting in a new backing plate would fix it.

Another thing is, was told it could be the master cylinder. But my brakes are feeling squishy at all.

Gearbox has heard the sound, i sent him the audio clip i took a month ago before i had got my drums turned and the sound was at full force.

When my mech was putting in new springs, shoes and drums a month ago, he was the one to first notice that the right shoes were going off center. Once he would manually re-center it, the scrubbing sound is gone.

No I only use the ebrake when i park.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i really think engineers wouldve thought about people reversing and using the rear brakes. ive gone 20+mph in reverse and mashed the brake pedal with no problem before too.

johndeerebones

Drum brakes are not rocket science, they have been around for well over 100 years, with that said the ones on most cars (with drums) are all the same.

The one thing you need to check is make sure you have them on right. Guessing that sense you have had it apart you have put shoes on it. Make sure you don't have two fronts on one side and two rears on the other. Working then not makes me think that as they self adjust they are tight on one side, when it releases on the hydraulics they are realeasing close to the same amount of oil from the cylinders, one side is fine, the other is not.

At first glance all 4 shoes are the same, but they aren't. The shoes that are slightly bigger, or have longer friction materials ALWAYS goes toward the front. I would guess that the side you are having the trouble on has two rears on it and they effectively are too small for the drum so they can slide around. First make sure you have the shoes correct.

The way drum brakes work is this. This takes for granted that you ARE going forward, so your buddy is right to the previous poster, drum brakes do only work 1/2 as good when in reverse. That is why you can back up relatively easily with your parking brake on but it is twice as hard to go forward.

When going forward,
When you hit the brake pedal hydraulic pressure pushes the shoes out. By centrifugal force of the primary(front) shoe working against the drum, it transfers via the adjustable link to the rear shoe, once both shoes are in contact the pistons push the shoes out forcefully. Knowing the theory of anything always helps me to diagnose it.

By the way the "automatic adjusting" feature of most drum brakes is only effective when backing up. When it is in reverse the adjuster is moved in such a way that the adjustment pawl acts on it and it tightens itself as needed. This is why it is sometimes needed to loosen it to get the drums off. If there is a wear ridge on the edge of the drums the shoes may possibly be physically past that edge.

johndeerebones

Oh yeah, just so you know the backing plate can wear out, if you have a bajillion miles on it. The only reason to replace it most of the time is because someone put it in a ditch or something and bent it up.

And, it is not out of the realm of possibility that where ever turned your drums turned them bigger than suppposed to be. Drums and rotors from American made cars are stamped right on them now days how big the biggest turn is, don't know about the Jap cars for sure. Never paid attention to mine....

lazlong

2001 model:

johndeerebones

Thanks Lazlong!

As blatently obvious as that is I would hope that the turners of the drum saw that and heeded it. To the op, there it is! He solved that one!

Civicnoobie

Oh so the shoes are different sizes? The front is larger? Cause someone brought that up with me awhile ago before i was turning my drums and well looked at all 4, looked the exact same size. I got a new spare set at home that i can double check. Maybe the OEM pads are only like this? Cause i have Napa Premiums in now and Wagner thermal quiets in before, I swear all the shoes were the exact same size.

When going forward,
When you hit the brake pedal hydraulic pressure pushes the shoes out. By centrifugal force of the primary(front) shoe working against the drum, it transfers via the adjustable link to the rear shoe, once both shoes are in contact the pistons push the shoes out forcefully. Knowing the theory of anything always helps me to diagnose it.

True, so my guess chances of it being the auto adjuster is pretty much none. I wonder if it could be the wheel cylinders? though they are new too, but Dorman brand.

Is there any way to check if my backing plate is bent up? WHen i spin the drum, it doesnt even touch the plate anyways...has a good amount of length between.

what do you mean by turned the drums bigger than supposed to be? Mean they took too much off?

I dont get the picture, sp MAX-DIA-201MM means the inner diameter of the drum should be exactly 201mm right? So you think they took too much off? what do you mean by heeded?

If the shop took too much of the drum off, then it wouldnt create a high point....wouldnt it be the opposite? they didnt take enough off? so maybe the diameter of the drum is less than 201mm causing the shoes to press too hard

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

haha wow! diy guys who bought brake parts from me did this all the time! then would bring them back saying we gave the wrong part because they wouldnt fit on the other side. lmao. they are never the same size. this is why i always tell people not to diy suspension or brakes if they have no clue how its done.yet they do it anyway and then complain saying they installed it right and then i have to say no you didnt lol. i got in trouble once too because some idiot said he wanted pads for his rear brakes and i looked it up, sure enough there were pads and shoes listed so i rang up the pads. he comes in, turns out he had drums. this guy didnt even know the difference!

Civicnoobie

so the front shoes are longer than the rears? ill pop my drums off again and take another look to make sure i have them in right. Im alsmost certain i do, i had 2 mechs see it lately too so unless theyre dumb to not notice the shoes are different sizes.

Whats the easiest way to tell which is the front and which is rear? and im talking without taking the shoes off.

Ill cross my fingers this is the cause but i dont think it is cause i had 1, 2, 3, 4 mechs look it over in the past month and all said the shoes are in right.

johndeerebones

Yes the shoes are different. It may not be the physical size necessarily, might just be frictions. Haven't had and Honda drums apart.

The auto adjusters work every time you hit the brakes while backing up. Unless you never drive backwards yes it has the capability to auto adjust as long as its together right and not bent up.

Watch the drum and the backing plate's relation to each other, the gap between them specifically. If its bent you will see it, also if its bent you should be able to see it with the drums and brakes off.

That is exactly what I mean, turned bigger. The inside diameter can be more than the specs. It doesn't have to be turned to that diameter for information purposes though. If they aren't bad the turner may only need to take off a couple thousandths. If they are maybe they had to take off 20 thousandths for example which might put it over. They should take that into consideration, but who knows.

No, too much wouldn't make a high point, that is not my point.
Taking not enough off is not possible unless they don't take enough off to get any out of round out. Anywhere between stock and the max size is just fine. AND it doesn't matter at all if both sides aren't the same size as long as they are between the two. The effects of too big are that the pistons can actually be spit out of the wheel cyliders if they are grossly too big. Also the brake perpetual motion transfer won't work like it is supposed to if its too big. Also the shape of the drum can be a different arc than the shoes, causing the pads to not contact the drums fully. If the drum is bigger, the effect would be that the leading ends of the shoes would be the only thing that would contact the drum. This is also true of putting two rears on one side. Has the same effect.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

is there any negative to never braking when reversing? cause i never back out fast enough to press the pedal. i usually lightly use the ebrake to stop and shift to D. is it worth doing a few quick reverse and stop motions every so often?

Civicnoobie

ill double check it but almost certain my fronts are in the fronts and rears in the rears. Ill get my new set at home and take a pic of it if i cant figure it out.

.I have and from what i notice theres a high point when i spin the drums that when the drum hits that high point itll drag until it gets out of the high point then back to normal.

.Sounds like i need to measure the inside diamete of them. Is it the length from the inside edge to inside edge of the drum?

Im going to take my drums to a brake shop and get them to check to see if my drums are still perfectly round. If its not then my shoes are obviously causing them to go out of round because i was told thats the only way drums should get out of round (other than being out of round out of the box).

johndeerebones

No, because on this design the parking brake does the same thing. Some are designed drum in hat. USUALLY the parking brake is the same principal as the service brakes when you have drums. It does get different with discs, but that is another topic. SO to answer your question NO, because the parking brake does it too..

johndeerebones

Yes inside to inside and the out of round comment is completly not true. Hot and cold cycles can get a perfect drum out of round.

Civicnoobie

Well I got the drums off tonight and noticed more brake dust on the right shoes than the left shoes.

Did some testing with the ebrake, pulled it up 1 notch and spun both wheels, they took a lot of force to spin, i know it was way too much for 1 notch on the ebrake. So i went into the center console and loosened the bolt a bit to loosen. Before the ebrake would fully engage with just 2 clicks, now its like 7.

Spun the wheels after with the ebrake on 1 then 3 notches and it spun a lot more free. Went for a drive after using mostly the brake pedal and the all sound from the rear was completely gone including the scrubbing "sssshhhh" sound. Wierd. So now what do you think?

Im almost certain itll return but i need to give it time.

My mech who helped me thinks that one of my ebrake cables could be overly scretched due to age and wouldnt hurt to replace it. He says that the ebrakes work mechanically and the reg brakes hydraucally. Is that right?

Also i called the brake shop and cant get in till Wed to check if my drums are out of round.

lazlong

Yes.

Civicnoobie

Also I checked my new set of shoes sitting in my room, put them side by side aat all angles and they are the same. When I had my drums off tonight i looked at all 4 shoes and all 4 are the exact same size. These are Napa Premiums. The ones in my room are Wagner Thermal quiets.

Do you think OEM shoes are the same or different sizes? Cause if this is the case, then why would 2 Aftermarket brands have all 4 shoes the exact same size?


If thats the case, then when I DO get the sound, since it happens when i brake normally AND with the ebrake as well...then the problem has to be BOTH a hydralic problem and a mechanical problem no? Cause it makes me wonder maybe i do have a bad (seized or overly scretched) ebrake cable.

lazlong

^^ It means the problem is in the brake assembly, not the cable or hydraulic system. Hell, switch the pads and see if the problem continues.

Civicnoobie

Ive switched my shoes twice in the past 3 months. First set was Wagner Thermal Quiets, 2nd (current) set is Napa Premiums. The first couple weeks ill hear no sounds, then like i said...itll start with the sssshhhh scrubbing sound then eventually put out a really loud sqeak, dragging sound.

Cause if what you guys tell me that the shoes actually come in front and rears and the rears and fronts are indeed different sizes, then i say its very LIKELY that is the problem. The fact the shoes i have now and the wagners i got, all shoes are the exact same size could be the cause. Does that sound logical?

ill have to call Honda up tommorow to see a pic of the OEM shoes, and why the Napa AND Wagner shoes are all the saem size. If the shoes do indeed need to be different sizes then the Napas and Wagners are factory defects.

But the front and rear shoes are exact same size. Did a really close up inspection tonight.

lazlong

I meant switch the front one to the back and the back to the front.

Civicnoobie

Im still trying to find out of the OEM shoes are different sizes (front and rear). Called honda here, no luck, they didnt know but they said pretty sure theyre all 4 same size.

Looked online at some more aftermarket shoes and all of them are the same, al the same size.

JohnDeer, are you running OEM shoes on yours? Im guessing yours are different sizes?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

john never opened his drums, same as most of us.
Mine still going strong at 102kmiles

lazlong

I put new ones in at 150K and I don't remember them being different sizes.

Only time I use the e-brake is for parking. When I back up I just put it in 1st and go, driven like that for 20 years now.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i used to work auto parts and every shoe ive seen has two sizes. including a box of wagner thermoquiets i had for civic but ended up with oem instead. you cannot tell unless you hold both shoes together before installing and look at the lengths. its small but its there. people made the mistake of assuming they were the same all the time and constantly come back saying they didnt fit right. the parts companies almost need to make them different colors lol.

Civicnoobie

Is this normal?

Ebrake has a lot more slack and looser when braking but foot off the brake and its notcably stiffer