green01civic

Bump, and a Q for gearbox. Have you tried the new Honda DW1 ATF? I got my first drain and fill done by the dealership the other day, and apparently that's what they're using now.

I haven't read anyting negative about it yet (fully synthetic, and supposed to have better cold weather protection). Over 100 miles since the service, so far the transmission seems to have less shift shock, or it could be my imagination (it wasn't bad to begin with, seemed as normal as any car, but seems smoother now). I'm also considering another drain and fill before the winter time.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

still using z1 and will be for the next change as well. dw1 is eventually replacing it tho so i will have to switch later. my trans isnt doing so great as it is so im not sure what will happen/

green01civic

Geez, sorry to hear that.

Regarding DW1, I've been reading generally positive things like this, but wanted to see if you used it yet:
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p=45012229
http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=817907

I attached the MSDS and also the Honda Tech Bulletin for the new DW1, in case you haven't seen either, along with pictures of the bottle.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah ive seen that. the only real difference is the viscosity, and thats what worries me using it with older trans. thinner fluid may work better in ideal conditions (a new transmission) but one that is over 5k miles can be in serious trouble. and honda already has a reputation for pushing thinner fluids to raise gas mileage an insignificant amount based on no real data other than "it works better."

im betting the new fluid should work on most of hondas older "bulletproof" trans in the early 90s, but the 01+ i have my doubts. they dont make em like they used to. esp with all the clutch pack issues on the 7thgen autos, thinner fluid will only cause more problems. i think i may just switch to valvoline maxlife trans fluid when the dealer runs out of z1 here. valvoline says its the only fluid compatible with honda trans and ive never heard of a fail story yet.

green01civic

I looked around for the Z1 viscosity, cause you got me interested in it, and these are the numbers I came up with:

ATF-Z1: cSt @100C=7.058, cSt @40C=29.49
DW-1: cSt @100C=6.835, cSt @40C=25.09

Indeed it is a lower viscosity, but I'm not convinced that is a bad thing. Looks about the same at or near operating temps, at 100C the DW-1 is less viscous but not by very much... but at 40C the DW-1 has a significantly different viscosity... to me it indicates better lubrication (and likely shifting performance) at cold start-up temperatures, and possibly increased heat transfer in higher temperatures.

For fun, comparing it to Valvoline MaxLife ATF:
MaxLife: cSt @100C=6.11. cSt @40C=28.18
DW-1: cSt @100C=6.835, cSt @40C=25.09

The MaxLife is thicker at cold temperatures, but thinner at operating temperatures, as compared to the DW-1 fluid. (And still overall less viscous than the Z1, with a significantly thinner profile near operating temps, -0.948cSt).

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

that is why i was considering the maxlife. the trans slips when cold but runs fine when hot. so im more worried about the cold viscosity making the trans slip even more.

thesushiboy

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Civic/2001/

green01civic

My point was that if its slipping when cold, it's slipping when the viscosity of the fluid is high ("thick")... and if it's not slipping when hot, it's not slipping when the viscosity is low ("thin"). My idea was that reduced cold viscosity of DW1 may reduce or prevent slipping, by the same logic.

But there are other characteristics to the fluid besides that. I believe from reading around that DW-1 also has less friction modifiers, which should also decrease slip.

I'm happy with the results of the first drain and fill I did, I plan on driving around awhile to get things mixed up well before doing the next drain & fill (I think I'm gonna order that updated AT dipstick too, 25610-PLX-003, cause that sounds like a good idea).

green01civic

I'm just one guy with an '01 Civic EX, but I changed the ATF with DW1 (one drain and fill so far) and it seems noticibly better so far. Z1 sucks, and now that Honda has finally graced us with a better product, I think it would be weird not to take advantage of it.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

well i will have to try the dw1 eventually if my trans is still going. dealer here is running out of z1 and next year prolly wont have it.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

well thinner oils technically can give slightly better gas mileage, but in many cases can cause problems in hot environments. some of us using 5w20 in the summer for example instead of 5w30 and having leaks/vtec problems.

green01civic

I don't believe that it will cause any problems. Some might say will cause slipping, but where and how? On the clutch packs, I think you are looking at thin film interactions, so viscosity will not determine the interaction between surfaces (and since honda is claiming better film strength, and I've read that there are reduced friction modifiers, this thinner fluid may in fact be more "grabby" and allow the clutches to more firmly engage). At the torque converter, the reduced viscosity fluid will reduce the power lost to heat due to fluid friction.

In the transmission as a whole, the pump should be able to more efficiently move around the fluid, which should more effectively cool everything.

And how much thinner are we really talking about? When heated to operating temperature, barely any thinner. Only when cool is there a significant difference, and what do we know about fluids that are thinner when cold? They lubricate better, preventing wear that is caused during warm up.

What else is different? Well, this fluid is fully synthetic. That should help the fluid from breaking down prematurely (such as the Z1 did).

green01civic

Yeah, so far I've just done one drain and fill.
The owner's manual and service manual both say 2.9qt changed during a drain and fill, and 6.3qt capacity.
Here's the replacement chart, assuming 2.9qt drained and replaced, fully mixed after each change, and a 6.3qt total capacity:
1st drain-and-fill: 46.0% New, 54.0% Old
2nd drain-and-fill: 70.9% New, 29.1% Old
3rd drain-and-fill: 84.3% New, 15.7% Old
4th drain-and-fill: 91.5% New, 8.5% Old
5th drain-and-fill: 95.4% New, 4.6% Old

I'm going to go back later this month and do my 2nd drain and fill (after 2nd, it'll be about 70% new). Unfortunately there is diminishing returns with each subsequent change, so the 3x3 method actually leaves in about 15% of the old fluid. So it begs the question, how changed do you want it? Lol. And do I consider 15% old fluid remaining a "flush", I do not.

Also, where the heck did I read there is a 9.0qt capacity and 3.0qt is changed each time... it appears that information is wrong.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

that is the biggest risk. full synthetic fluid tends to loosen old deposits better than conventional. so there is a good chance even a 1/3rd change of dw1 can cause enough old junk to come loose and clog the internal filter. needless to say goodbye trans when that happens. on a new one there is no problem starting with dw1 like honda has chosen to do for 2011.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

not thinner fluid, synthetic fluid. and yeah i see it happen all the time. people put amsoil or mobil trans fluid in their old auto and it breaks down 10k miles later. its not like switching to synthetic for the motor. well it is, but not as serious. anyway when you change the trans fluid, you are only draining 3 qts out of a total of 9 qts.

green01civic

Are we sure of 9qt? The only thing in writing that I could find is 6.3qt, from both the service manual and the owners manual.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

youre right! my honda service manual says 6.3 too.

green01civic

I think that yes, Honda brand is probably safer. Synthetic base stocks alone have no advantage to "cleaning" vs dino, synthetic base stocks resist breakdown and oxidation. Most good synthetic oils also have a high quality additive package, which gives their superior detergent properties. Right off the bat, ATF is lower in detergents than motor oil (since there's no need to be high detergent, because the transmission never deals with combustion gases, etc.), but I guess that some aftermarket ATF's may be high in detergents. Honda uses a sort of exotic high-magnesium low-phosphorus detergent package, with boron for antiwear.

I am going to make the assumption (without a VOA to back it up, since we don't have one for DW1 yet), that the additive package is if not the same, then likely similar. (As it's mixable in any ratio and quantity, it would only make sense if the constituent components of both were 'compatible', so they likely share similarities, including the additives package).

But I'm only making assumptions cause we don't have lab data (to compare fluids), and we don't have a documented history of people making the switch (to compare results). I'm sure it will all eventually pan out, and I have no trouble sleeping at night after the switch to DW1 :P.

edit: My opinion is that if the transmission was to grenade on the change to DW1, it would have likely grenaded with a Z1 change too.

green01civic

Ok Keep us updated with any differences you notice, positive or negative.

Too Tall

Is there any information besides rumor that proves DW-1 is synthetic? If Honda didn't increase change intervals, it can't be that much better.

Noticing an improvement in shifting after changing to DW-1 doesn't prove its any better.

At 27,000 miles on my 07, I changed all the Z-1 out with new Z-1 by doing 3 drain and refills at once. I also noticed an improvement in shifting. In my mind, that demonstrates Z-1 is not a long life fluid, and should not be left in tranny after 30,000 miles of use.

There are so many inconsistent reports about Honda transmissions and after market fluids, none of it makes any sense. I have read reports that Amsoil destroyed the transmsision after 100 miles to others that report doing only one drain and refill with Z-1 every 30,000 miles and getting 130,000 miles on the tranny with no problem.

I did 3 drain and refills of Z-1 to get as much of the contaminates of old oil out as possible. I have since done two drain and refills with Amsoil with about 1000 miles in between to reduce the risk of Amsoil cleaning off two much varnish and glaze too quickly. So far, no problems.

green01civic

"The key benefits for the Honda ATF DW-1 are:
• Low Temperature, Lower Viscosity:
- Better lubrication
- Reduced friction at low temperature
- Improved fuel economy
• High Temperature, Stable Viscosity:
- Maintains film thickness
- Improved protection against breakdown
- Full synthetic, high film strength" - According to a Moderator @ ElementOwnersClub.com

Here's a picture of the Canadian bottle, which says "full synthetic" right at the top of it. No idea why the American version wouldn't, but there you go:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j7...8/Image223.jpg

Too Tall

This means nothing, even the cheapest stuff has the same claims on the bottle.

Also means nothing, I didn't see any technical support for his opinion, maybe I missed it.

That certainly contributes to the confusion.

green01civic

I don't think so. It's the same fluid in a different bottle. Want to see the japanese bottle?
http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-parts/t_fluid/

It's a big old school tin! LOL.

Too Tall

I have no idea what that means, it's written in Japanese. Kind of funny it has English writing on the can. But no claims of synthetic.

Is it possible the Canadian oil was an early version of DW-1 which has now been changed to non-synthetic?

green01civic

I think it's the same fluid in all three containers, and the labeling and container differences are just a result of market variations.

What would the point be of Honda going back to the base stock of Z1, if they went through all the trouble of coming out with a new formula in the first place. It would also make no sense to have different fluids all called the same thing.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

some people on other forums have said the car shifts smoother and has less lag switching to D from R or P after dw1. ive noticed the same thing when doing a drain and fill with z1. it fades away a week later tho. so that claim prolly isnt true of the dw1 and simply a side effect of adding new fluid.

kbook

Guys,

I've been using DW-1 for my wife's CR-V and my Civic for two months. Both received their first drains.

For the CR-V, when shifting to R, I felt it engaged a little harder (I m not sure if i pick the right word) But, so far so good for the CR-V 08. Nothing wrong was noticed.

Alright for my Civic 04, the first drain went well. I did get more Mileage which I am pretty happy. No sign of failure (finger crossed) My civic might have the only one good transmission from Honda : D

So far, I am happy. I think my wife will get the new car so I will have to sell my Civic and drive the K24 on CR-V. However, there will be another 4 months until we have a solid decision about getting new one.

Oh my!! I will miss my little D17. It's a gas saver. The CR-V got around 28 mpg on highway and the gas price is just killing.

Too Tall,

I wish I used Amsoil ATF from the start so I could measure it from the start. Otherwise, there is no fact or evidence to support this theory. I do not know if there is anybody in this forum who uses something else early enough to compare with us.

The funny thing is even synthetic couldn't get rid of the shifting problem in the mid winter. I really hate that. what do you call that again? : )

P.S. the second drains for both vehicles are coming soon. This should tell the different since they will have more than half of the fluid.

kbook

Those tins are very classic. they reminds me of the mineral spirit tins. : )

Too Tall

I have 4 theories:

1. Z-1 is not a long life fluid and should not be left in the tranny beyond 30,000 miles.

2. DW-1 may have bit better formulation than Z-1, but if Honda did not significantly increase drain intervals, it still is not as good as the best pure synthetic tranny fluids on the market.

3. Despite the dire warnings that only Z-1 or DW-1 Honda fluids are compatible with Honda transmissions, there have been some reports of guys using different aftermarket brands without problems.

4. A significant number of problems related to Honda transmissions are due to either improper service intervals, improper service techniques, or mixing incompatible fluids. I am including mixing new Amsoil with old, contaminated Z-1 fluid as an incompatibility problem.

green01civic

A bit over 1000 miles since my transmission fluid change, and is still noticibly better than before. No idea how long it's gonna take for me to either get used to it or for it to go away, but it's still there. I may do the next one tomorrow or friday.