MindBomber

Holy ****!

Canadian prices are high but thats nuts.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i got my redline from local summit racing for around $10 each quart not too bad. from what i hear it has a unique smell lol. im guessing from the ester bases. maybe it smells like a banana. and a cheap wix filter. prolly wont be using them til july tho.

also i just remembered i still used lubecontrol additive in the synthetic oil, wonder if that has something to do with burnoff altho i dont see why...

Too Tall

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...Oils_FAQs.aspx

I went snooping around on Mobil's website and found this verification they use PAO based products in their formulas. I found another link that stated the "Extended Performance" Mobil 1 has 50% more "SuperSyn" than in their other formulations.

There was another statement that said damaged seals in older motors can leak more after adding Mobil 1. But it depends on the type of damage to the seal. If the seal has simply shrunk a bit, Mobil 1 may soften the seal and stop the leak. But Mobil 1 cannot repair other types of seal damage.

Lots of information there if you want to spend the time using the search function. But I could not find technical information supported by standardized testing, such as the cold pour point.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah i dont mind replacing a leaky seal after adding synthetic since it was bad to begin with. so far since 4 months ago not a drop anywhere, just the burning.

dred

i know 2 guys that own a plane and they both say at the 2000hr service
they can tell if they used synthetic or conventional oil by the size of the bill

I run syn in the winter and conventional in summer.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

tell those guys they are stupid and are making groundless accuasions.

and i bet you 5 bucks you aren't really running real synthetic oil.


what do you run?

pjb3

I'm not sure what it is about the suggestion that the owner of a plane could tell if it was a dino or a syn oil change by the cost that you are objecting to. Aircraft maintenance is documented, I would expect that if they were billed for synthetic oil that is what was put in the engine. It's not like a quick lube place where they hire a kid and hope he gets it right.

I'm also curious what synthetic oil you think is not a "real synthetic".

Buy the way I run Castrol 0w-30

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Hmm... why 0W30?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

why not? better cold starting. and once the car warms up, the 30 weight is fine year round. i wouldve used that this time but all i could find locally was 5w30.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

oh yea? well i run -5w30!!!!

Too Tall

Here in the USA, the term "synthetic" is just about meaningless because of a law suit between oil companies about the technical definition of synthetic vs dino oil. There are very few full synthetics on the market, most are synthetic blends, with no published information if the formulation is 10% or 100% synthetic. In addition, the quality of synthetic components vary from barely better then dino oil, to way better.

The easiest way to tell between a good full synthetic and a barely better than dino synthetic, is if the oil has a cold pour point is the range of -60 F degrees below zero. Dino oils have a cold pour point of about - 20 F degrees.

danwat12345

OK, do I have the following right?
So basically synthetics are really good for extreme temperatures because they don't have the friction modifiers that dino oil does.

The molecules of full synthetic oil is smaller than dino oil, don't know if this actually is why it is required in some vehicles.

Synthetic oil CAN"T hold more dirt , metal or combustion by-products than dino oil.
Get a used oil analysis and check the metal numbers and TBN. If the metal numbers & TBN are good then you don't have to change your oil yet.

Metal shavings(and other crap), changes in the oil's viscosity (friction modifer damage or from contamination) and the level of TBN are the only things to worry about with engine wear. --Right/?

Dino oil and full synthetics need to be changed just as often in regards to carbon by-products, dirt & metal shaving contamination.

Synthetic oil's TBN (Total Base Number=amount of additives in the mix) don't last necessary any longer than a dino oil's TBN.

SO, the ONLY benefits to synthetics are the lack if friction modifiers and the fact that the moecules are smaller. With no friction modifiers that can get screwed up with extreme temperatures, you can increase your OCI without worrying about the viscosity of the oil changing.
-EDIT: Oh yeah and full Synthetic's flash points are higher than dino and pour point is lower.


--Am I right?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

pretty much the engine feels like there is less resistance when it turns. does that mean more hp? not really. its just a smoother and more efficient engine. not a huge difference but its there. and with a good filtration system you can go longer between changes using synthetics. otherwise a dino oil will allow your engine to last 500k+ miles. synthetic holds its composition better under hi heat, but if you change dino every 5k it wont really matter.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

a lot of wrong info in there. lol sorry.

the reason why you want a true synthetic is because EVERY molecule is the same because they are man made. it also allows for less additives that are not as good for the atmosphere and ur car. the size of the molecule has no real relevance.

the reason why they call dino oil here synthetic is because oil companies have found a way to extract the sulfur n a few other elements out of the dino oil (and the refinement process also is much more advance then what it was years ago, hence "more pure" oil)

danwat12345

Viscosity is viscosity. 5w30 is 5w30. Same force (against friction if Velocity=constant) required to move a rod thru synthetic or dino fluid of the same viscosity rating at a constant velocity... right?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

synthetic 5w30 stays at that viscosity, dino degrades over time. there are also lubricity differences.

dred

since they owned it for last 15yrs and have had many 2000 hr services
so I think I would personally listen to them over say you.

Where you get your info from the internet, your not looking in the right spot
or you cant read.

groundless accusarions...lol its called experience.

Oh and I burn both ...

sythetic in winter
regular in summa

Too Tall

Wrong, both synthetic and dino oils may or may not have friction modifies. Depends on what application they were formulated for.

Sort of, but missing the real point that synthetic molecules are more consistent than dino oil molecules. Dino is made of light molecules that evaporate or burn off very quickly, and heavy molecules that remain behind and turn to sludge. The full synthetics have additives with different sized molecules, but overall, the sizes are more consistent and don't break apart nearly as quickly as dino.

Another misconception. PAO based oils will tend to dissolve the sludge and varnish left behind from dino oils. Once X amount of metal particles, or moisture or whatever, is present in the oil, the oil is contaminated beyond what is considered acceptable. That can occur in both types of oil. The problem is the source of contamination, not the oil itself.

Not true. You must also check oil viscosity, fuel or water dilution, additive package, and as many other things as you want to pay to check for.

Not true. Mobil 1 makes a 5,000 (dino), 7,500 (blend), and 15,000 (synthetic) oil. I regularly go 15 to 20,000 miles between oil changes with Amsoil full synthetic oils and filters. Amsoil also offers blended oils for oil change intervals based on the car's oil monitoring system, 5 to 7.5K miles..

Probably true of the cheaper synthetics that are based on hydrocracked dino oil. Not true of the full synthetics that are PAO or ester based.

Generally true, but the lines get blurred in the middle ranges of cheap synthetics and good dino oils.

Not true, the benefits are where you find them. I don't mind the higher cost of Amsoil because I use extended drain intervals, and that is a lot less work for me because I do my own oil changes. In addition, I get a bit better mpg, so that also makes the cost difference negligible. It is still possible for even the best synthetics to break down or get contaminated over time. So you have to keep an eye on those factors as well. That is the purpose of doing a used oil analysis and using good filters (NOT K&N). But with small engines, doing the oil change is not that much more expensive than doing any oil analysis just to see if you need to do an oil change.

Go to Amsoil's web site and read the comparisons of oils they have posted. Lots of graphs and explanations.

Too Tall

There have been multiple magazines and such posting before and after dyno tests. The full synthetics will give a 10 hp boost on a Chevy 350 V8. I can't seem to remember a 4 cylinder test.

SHHEETT. I'm hoping to get just 100,000 miles out of my 07 piece of oil burning junk.

In a new bottle of oil, dino or synthetic, viscosity is viscosity. However, the full synthetics hold viscosity over longer time / mileage periods and over a much broader temperature range. The difference is how long the oil can maintain the desired viscosity without breaking down.

That doesn't really make sense, unless you're trying to save money in the summer. Generally, you don't want to change back and forth between different types of oil too many times, especially different brands. Even today, you can run into problems where the additive packages can conflict and turn into sludge.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

so you never answered my question. what oil are u running.
you afraid of telling us?




and groundless accU? lol. you cant simply look at an engine and tell that it has been running syn or not. because 95% of what is in the US is NOT a real synthetic, even tho it says so on the bottle.

so explain that.

i doubt that any more than a few of those "2000 hrs" of service mean **** in terms of specialized detail oil knowledge.

mechanics only know the basic and most dont know the in dept or to a specialization standpoint. go to a dealership or a mech shop and ask them about group III/IV or PAO oils... or how its filtered...

dred

I don't wanna say what I use? WTF? you confirmed my suspision that you don't read, or maybe don't comprehend.
what is the very last thing i put i my post please read slooowwlly.


And what they say cause they have burnt both in thier plane syn and regular
matter fact out for beers last week they have another comming up is when they burn syn between thier 2000 hr maint window the service cost them less because of less wear and less parts used to be certified again.
And as one fine poster pointed out everything done to the plane is documented, by law.

So if its not real synthetic what is it?
Mobol1 quaker state and valvoline are all lyin when they put 100% synthetic on the jug.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah they are lying. there was a lawsuit while back about this and judge decided it was okay to call something "synthetic" even tho it wasnt a pure/real synthetic oil. redline is very different from valvoline for example.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

can you not real? i asked what KIND of oil you used....you know, the brand.

because there are only TWO known TRUE synthetics (man made group IV) in the US. redline, MOTUL 300v, AMSOIL. both in 10w-40. they are a true man made synthetic group IV PAO oil.

everything else on the market (mobile1, shell rotella, quarker, castro, penzoil...etc) are are type III oil. and type III oil is a dino based oil but HERE IN THE USA, THEY CAN BE LABLED AS "FULL SYNTHETIC." THE US OIL COMPANIES HAVE FOUND A WAY HOW TO LABLE IT AS "FULL SYNTHETIC" DUE TO THE LOOP HOLE IN US LEGISLATION: THE REMOVAL/REFINEMENT OF SULFUR (biggest loop hole they use for their arguement)

(CAPS: i am not yelling. just making it clear what is the important part to read)

There are no absolute definitions in the US that oil companies must adhere to when labeling a product Fully Synthetic. And no Oil manufacturer I've seen lists the "Group #" for the base oils included in the bottle. They are very hush-hush about it (because as we know, their marketing team is amazing good at what they do). Group III (these are not real syn) base stocks are considered synthetic motor oil only in the United States; elsewhere they are not allowed to be marketed as "synthetic" (like europe and the rest of the world because they have tighter legislation).



now...with that said. i asked you what oil you ran for a reason...so i can tell you that "you arent really running true synthetic and ur like the rest of the [majority] US population: uneducated when it comes to oil.

which brings me back to my original point about ur omnipotent mechanic. 99% of the cars he see will all be running groupIII "full synthetics" (which i remind you again are not really synthetics, because synthetic means man-made).


and here is another fact, most oil have the greatest break down point around 500-800 miles (then they slowly break down afterward), and mind you, most high performance race cars change their oil out every race so it doesnt matter for them.

and just to let yo know, if you are not paying around $15 a QUART for oil, big chances are they are NOT group IV synthetic oils.

amsoil and motul 300v 10w40 both run around $15+ per quart.


if you really want to educate yourself in oil read up on it. there are tons of books and articles. i know about all this because it was a required subject for my fluid dynamics class.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i got redline for $12 a quart from my local summit racing

Too Tall

A person with enough failure analysis experience can. Dino oil has more sludge, varnish, burnt carbon deposits. If good filters are used, engines with full synthetic oils will have less wear on load bearing and friction surfaces that can be seen with the naked eye.

You can get full synthetics that range from 5w-20 to 60w.

Not quite true. Most of the lighter components of dino oil may evaporate off in 500 to 800 miles, but the heavier components that remain behind are good for another 5 to 7.5 K miles. However, dino or synthetic oil can break down very quickly, in 100 miles or less, if it gets WAY too hot, or contaminated with water or fuel, for example.

I agree about doing your own research, but evidently that fluid dynamics class was a little short on real world facts and experience.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

^mmm good info but the 500m-800m was based on a research from a professor at some university (like ucla i believe) that ran oil analysis. he did a oil-break down experiment... let me look if i can find that article somewhere.

plus with the sludge and stuff, there are just wayyyyyyyy too many variables to consider. if a person ran a true synthetic groupIV, and ran it for 15k+ before any kind of oil change and if he has a shitty filter (just throwing it out), it would cause a substantial amount of sludge as well.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

All these oil threads drive me crazy..... lol... mainly because I don't care, my engine is protected with whatever oil I decide to use and synthetic is downright a complete and utter waste of money. My engine will last just as long as anyone here who uses synthetic, I don't care what tests say. The companies that run the tests get paid to modify the results anyway... seriously.. 55 dollars per oil change for oil is insane. The only advantage is you can run it a bit longer but even that I don't 100% believe in... You guys can flame me all you want for this but I think you are all giving your hard earned money to oil companies which is fine if that's what you want to do. I have 110k miles on my car with no oil related issues whatsoever and I go 8000kms inbetween oil changes with Dino oil... I've probably saved up enough money at this point to buy myself a new D17 as compared to those using top of the line synthetic. It's not like we race these cars. At least I don't. I do however drive it much harder than your average Joe.

LoL

pjb3

I agree with a lot of what you have said and think you make an interesting point about European oils. Based on the above paragraph, how do you then say that Motul and Amsoil are the only true synthetics sold in the US? I agree that oil companies do not disclose information so a lot of information is speculation such as if an oil is a Group III or Group IV base. I don't know if you are familiar with Bobistheoilguy.com but if you like discussions about oil I would recommend you check them out.

I guess what I am getting at is when someone says Mobil1 or Penzoil Platinum or what ever is a Group III and not a Group IV what are they basing that on? Did they really hear it from a chemical engineer at the actual oil company or from a mechanic who heard something about it? I would also point out that formulations change so what was true 1 or 2 years ago may or may not be true now.

I am not an expert, just an engineer that likes to play with cars and finds oil interesting. If anyone would like to learn from people that work in the oil industry, once again I recommend Bobistheoilguy.com. For anyone looking for answers such as "is Amsoil/Redline/Royal Purple better than Mobil1" you may not get an answer but you will get a discussion of each oil. By the way I find it interesting that in the poll of which oil they use almost 20% use Mobil1 and even more use Penzoil.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

$50 a year for a synthetic oil change is worth it to me...

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

I put 30k miles a year on my car it just isnt worth synthetic