Detailed D17 NA Build Research-ideas updated 10/13
*EDIT read the whole thread for some decent information on parts availible*
i was wondering if anyone knew some good companies for cam regrinds and possibly an ITB setup. i have an lx so nothing is premade for the head yet and possibly ever. im thinking somewhere around the gains happening from the crower stage 2. around the 30-40 horse power range. and just looking for a good companies for a ITB setup. i saw a DIY ITB setup but it seemed very time consuming and thats not in the cards with my new job. not dead set on the ITB setup but lets hear some companies thanks guys. and dont worry tuning that is not a consideration in this thread
*EDIT read the whole thread for some decent information on parts availible*
EDIT To keep this thread strictly research based, a commenting thread has been added to the sticky at the top of the main 7th-gen sub forum. If you wanna comment on this thread, please do it there. Sorry for the incontinence. Any posts in wrong forums will be movoed. Thanks!!!
Hmm, I never seen any ITB's for our engine. Can you find the link to the DIY that your talking about? Maybe this might spark some ideas on my part for an easier way to have it happen. I'm curious how the TB's would be activated, I can only imagine that would require a rather complex cable job.
any ideas on who offers good regrinds or custom itbs setups anyone? i found a universal kit but it only comes in 45mm stacks and i think that is a little huge for our engines
I've been looking at ITB's all morning. Ebay hads a bunch of manifolds you can pick up and hack apart for this. TB's in all differnt sizes.
From what I've seen. Yank the d17 mani, get a D16 mani, perferably stock over the skunk2 mani- which is a little bigger and harder to fit with out mods. Hmm, from what I remember you would probably need the D17 plate afixed, and to cut down on size, hack the D16 plate so your not double stacking them. then cut the runners on the mani at whatever length you can to get them to cram in the engine bay, and then use the couplers and tubing to get the throttle bodies on... kiss the velocity stacks away if you wanna run with filters. I'm still confused on how that DIY did the cable wiring- he said it was easier then he though it would be, which is good news. Not I'd trust that sensor he created either.
that could be the way to fab it up to begin with... check out this cable idea..
hey hey might have found a few good things... colt cams has said they will work with me and find something that will work with the D17A1 heres the email:
To B. Campbell,Thank-you, for contacting us.Sorry we have not seen this model as of yet.However, I have been working with cams for over 25 years and designingsomething new has always been my one of my passions.A few questions need to be answered first on the valve trane, example: solidor Hyd lifters, roller or flat tappet, sohc or dohc etc.We would need to see your cam first to determine what the stock lift andduration is. At this point I can design something with you over telephonethat will suit what you're after as well as cost.There is no charge if we can't do anything for you. We will also pay forthe return shipping back to you if this is the case.If you are interested please give us a call at your convenience and I willgo over the details.Thank-you,Geoff BardalFOR OUR U.S. CUSTOMERS REGARDING SHIPPINGWhen sending in your cams, via any courier service or the post office.Please put as the value of the cams to be under $10.00.This falls under NAFTA and no duty charges will be inflicted on you.Please put on the waybill as well as on the package."Damaged Camshaft for Repair and Return"PAYMENTWe only accept International Money Orders in US funds made out to Colt CamsInc.COLT CAMS INC.#54 - 3347 262 nd StreetLangley, BCV4W 3V9TEL: (604) 856-3571FAX: (604) 856-3572 www.coltcams.com geoff1@coltcams.com
this company has a unique cam profile that opens the intake lobes slightly offset that allows for a better power band. sounds interesting to me
then i got an email from danstoy racing saying they will develop a custom ITB setup. here is there email:
Our custom ITB setup will run for 1,200.00. That is hardware only. We can either use Toyota 20 valve ITB's 40mm, 44mm or brand new TWM ITB's which are a little more pricier. You would also need to run a Full stand alone management.
Feel free to ask us any more questions if you have them
Jed
Manager of Danstoy
the only downside to the setup besides the large price tag is that this requires stand alone fuel management which i was trying to stray away from. well im not sure anyone is actually looking at these but i thought i would write it anyway. i have been trying to stay away from the dyi because i cant do any of the machining and i think that it would be hard to get it everything to work up right but im not experienced with fabing my own projects. thanks for the interest guys
Last edited by civic-driver : 07-09-2007 at 11:20 PM.
Brentt,
If it is going to be a custom grind you are going to have to send in the specs along with your cam. The price for that would be $100 and the motor that you have is a non vtec, the D17A2 is a vtec motor. the cams are different. We dont make cams for single cam non vtec honda motors. but if you can get the specs that you want for your cam, we can do it.
well seeing the hundred dollar price tag is not bad at all since i have found a camshaft for 25 bucks. the hard part is i would not know where to begin on sending them specs for the cam.... possibly a D16 non vtec cam profile? im not sure you guys have any ideas feel free to post...
I thought it was the price of their regular cam, plus the extra custom fee (100 bucks)? I thought I saw this on crower's website, under the catalog.
Interesting links on the ITB's. Good work so far. Thoes guys are getting pricy quick. I agree on the fuel management system. With more air, you'll need more fuel. Once you max out the injecors (if you can running NA) you'll need bigger ones, and a fuel system thats worthy of supplying them with enough fuel. Makes sence, even though I wouldnt want to buy a fuel mgmt system at this point in my build. But it would be several months out until a company would get the design down, testing done, and be able to stock their shelves with a few of these bad boys.
I think the design would be a little differnt the the B series, which includes the fuel system. Our stock injecotrs and stock fuel rail are not part of the intake manifold, so you should be able to leave them alone and run ITB's. Only issue would be if the ITB's would max the injectors out, and if running bigger injectors would max the fuel lines/pump out. And of course this would happen because of the A/F ratio- adding more air means you need more fuel. A vafc2 should be able to tune this guy a little bit (assuming the ideal point is within the range the vafc2 allows for adjustment), but we all know the vafc2 has its limits.
having to upgrade the fuel lines and fuel pump wouldnt be horribly costly i think i priced it all around 400-500 dollars depending on if a return line was added. i agree with you triz that upgrading the lx cam would make for a rougher idle and such which is why im interested in the colt cams with the slight offset on the intake lobes which will lessen the peak gains but will make a broader over gain. i think they asked for a factory cam so that they could take the specs off but im not sure i would have to reread it and i really dont want to right now. i was even considering a little dishonesty and seeing if i could get the specs from the colt cams ppl and give them to crower for a custom grind... but i think i would feel to guilty. either way i will look for a few more cam options this week and report back. later
Last edited by civic-driver : 07-10-2007 at 11:27 PM.
anyones guess is good as another. Traditionaly, ITB's free up a good amount of power on most engines. D17's dont give up power without a fight, so it would be pretty interesting to see what itb's could do for us.
I kinda wanna take off my intake and drive out to the gas station intakeless just to hear it
hmm ok it has been a while on since i posted last i have been getting college stuff done. tonight i was bored and started looking at the bottom end of the d17 to look for improvements and this is where i stand with my thinking. i started by looking the possible stroker kits to see what was out there. i then went to the train of thought of hey i bet a d16 stroker would fit in our block since the d17 fits in the d16. now there is one company that makes up to a 2.0 liter displacement for the D16 here: http://www.rddyno.com/index.php?cPath=32_91
then after a bit more research i came across a limiting problem that i had not heard of. stroke to rod ratio. well i guess it turns out the the current D17 stroke to rod ratio is already a limiting factor that keeps it from being stroked out effectively because the piston is accelerating too much in a high revving application causing higher strain on the cylinder walls, or something along those lines. from what i have read tonight it seems that the best way to help this ratio would to to increase the bore in the cylinder and use a larger piston instead of a larger stroke and possibly a shorter stroke if a higher rev is wanted. so my question i guess is has anyone actually tried to increase the bore and use a larger piston possibly with a high comp and larger intake and exhaust valves. higher comp pistons because im stilling thinking along the lines of a NA upgrade. just thought i would throw this info out there to see if it sparks any ideas thanks guys
Last edited by civic-driver : 08-21-2007 at 04:31 PM.
alright well i emailed darton about what max bore they would recommend with there sleeves so we will see what the suggest and what that would cost. i read that on a d16 with a 1 mm overbore there is a noticeable increase in power. not huge of course but still. I also read that increasing the bore also increase the dynamic compression ratio but not the static? im not sure what that means but i will look into it. I read that a max of 78mm bore has been used on the darton sleeves for the D16 so with the stock 75mm bore that would be a nice increase which would lead to finding pistons for the application. I am waiting to see what darton says about the bore before i start looking into the pistons. Im hoping that the increase could put the displacement around a 1.9 liter with the over bore but i havent looked into calculating the displacement yet because i guess you could call me lazy after seeing the long formula lol. well i was just giving you an update on my progress even though i dont think anyone is reading any of this. later
Last edited by civic-driver : 08-21-2007 at 04:45 PM.
well by the time i finished the last post darton had emailed me back. what customer service. here is there email and mine:
Brentt,
The only sleeves we have for the D17 blocks are the 300 Series open deck sleeves. The sleeves come for stock bore size and have a max bore of 77mm. You can go with a 78mm bore on the D16 block but the D17 is casted differently than the D16 so they would not use the same sleeves. The D17 300-011 sleeves take about a week to make and cost $250.00 for the set. Installation is an additional $500.00 and takes about 15- 20 days.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
Thanx,
John
John Catapang
National Sales Manager
Darton International, Inc.
2380 Camino Vida Roble Bldg. K
Carlsbad, CA. 92011
From: Brentt Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:21 PM
To: John Catapang
Subject: custom sleeves
Hello,
I had a few questions as to the D17 Honda Block. I am looking into over boring the cylinders and i was curious as to the maxium bore you would recomend for the block with your sleeves in a NA setup . You list have sleeves for the standard 75mm bore. is there a possibility of a larger bore into the d17 block? i was told that a 78mm bore has been used on a D16. i was just wondering the price of customs sleeves alone and the price if you were to install them. thank you in advance.
Brentt Campbell
Alright well i have to go to class so i will be on later to look into piston options and possibly different compression ratios. later guys
I'm reading this man, lol, keep up the good work. BTW I'm boosted and still reading this, so someone has to take the flag and run with it, sounds like you are doing a good job
Thoes guys are getting pricy quick. I agree on the fuel management system. With more air, you'll need more fuel. Once you max out the injecors (if you can running NA) you'll need bigger ones, and a fuel system thats worthy of supplying them with enough fuel. Makes sence, even though I wouldnt want to buy a fuel mgmt system at this point in my build. But it would be several months out until a company would get the design down, testing done, and be able to stock their shelves with a few of these bad boys. 
