[TRIZ]

Your going to want to upgrade the valve train, it is a weak point in our motors when trying to increase HP. Basically the stockers wont handle a rev limit increase, and they will struggle under adjusted duration and lift. Its only 300 bucks for the valve springs and retainers from crower- and you even have the benefit of using my video DIY from the summer to guide you through it!

Check out this classic video that explains how vtec works, it should help you visualize and translate the lift and duration numbers just a little better:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AcT_ZyY3F0k

Oh, and I thought you wanted a LX cam regrind? If so, you wont have the secondary vtec lobe. In that case, you will be making the regular lobes more agressive- which will impact your fuel economy when just driving around town, and you wont have that second mode to flip over to when your car needs that extra power. Which is why I think you should go with the EX head swap. Now that I think about it, I dont know if the crower springs are going to work for your lx head- you'd have to hit up honda and ask the part numbers and see if they are the same. I'd look on majestic for you, but their inventory numbers are differnt from hondas part numbers, and when your messing with engine internals- you dont wanna trust some unlegit numbers.

BTW, I stuck your thread for more exposure!

[civic-driver]

im curious if anyone knows the exacts on our vtec system. I know that we supposedly have the vtec-e which doesnt open all valves the same height to create a swirl in the combustion chamber. http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/vtec1.html this is where i get my vtec-e info. im curious as to the differences and if it really would help on the performance side. I am using the specs for the crower camshafts to get a rough idea of what i want to use for the lx regrind.i have also thought about the differences in the valvetrain. im hoping that supermex will find this because he has quite a bit of experience with the lx head and should be able to enlighten us. Im not going to go for the full camshaft right now. i am going to try and get a lower level profile for the time being so i can hopefully avoid lots of costs. I would like to try and get a new cam profile and fuel management before winter starts just for a little more fun. also i am aware of the lower economy and as long as there is some increase horsepower i will be happy. thanks for the help Triz

[djmota]

I noticed a few details that should be adressed. The fact that you don't want to use crower ultralight rods,(because you dont want to rev that high) but you want to get your oil pump modded for high revs are contradictory. Save your money on the oil pump mod and get the rods. our longer stroke d17's are not going to be 9-9.5k revving engines. With a stage 2 cam/built engine you will see peak hp at around 8200-8500rpms. Rods IMO are a must for safety and reliability, dont cheap out on that part. The stock oil pump i think will be fine up to 8500 rpm. But you could check out what stock d16 pumps are capable of of on d series.org. There are lots of tuners that know kpro very well and very few that know ems well, for that reason i would say kpro is the way to go. Not to mention you can use my tune to get you close to what you will need. I think homemade itbs from a gsxr 1000 would be fine for a d17. and cheaper. check out some of the diys on honda tech.

[civic-driver]

first the gx pistons where addressed once and with the larger bore i plan on will not work.

second i have been coming to the same conclusion with the rods and they have been becoming very necessary. im hoping the rumors of another company making rods that will be in the $500 range is true and will be availible by the time this build is set into place. if they are that will most likely be my choice for new rods.

third I will look at the other d-series oil pumps and see what they can handle. Im thinking that with the modified oil pump less chance of oil being consumed and just generally less wear on valvetrain. but i will look into it more.

fourth i had been leaning towards k-pro so its good to hear that it will most likely be the better choice. now with the itb setup. i have been leanign towards honda based bikes for throttlebodies just so i can use the tps sensor without modifing as much, i was told honda uses the same on bikes and car for tps voltage range. arent the gsxr1000 tbs like 51-53 mm (not sure)? wouldnt that be to large? from what i have found that would be too big. most my info is based off of here: http://www.team-integra.net/sections...les.asp?Show=1
I have been looking at the Cbr600 because of a little smaller tb 40mm (what i remember of hand) which would be better suited for the generally lower output of our engine but will need to be based off of what it will be after it is built which i would have no clue as to what it would be. i will check out the DIYs on honda tech thanks man. +1

and for the record filters will be used on the ITB setup when i get that far. i might use some sort of a airbox on the end of the throttle bodies to keep sound output down and for MAP sensor placement for easier tuning. havent looked into it much but it is an idea

thanks for all the input guys keep it coming.

[lordhelmet]

What kind of power difference would you see between a larger bore 11:1 compression vs stock bore and 12.5:1 compression pistons(aka GX)? If you just theoretically changed our pistons to the gx pistons how much power could be gained?

Keep up all the good work civic-driver. Im trying to sift through all the info and its taking some time to sink in. I would rep you but I need to spread some around first.

[AGuyWithACivic]

^ I found this: http://www.bgsoflex.com/crchange.html

Granted it's really just a ball-park figure-probably WAAAAAAAY ball-park - but just something to think about.

For us A1s (using power from crank), we'd get 123 at the crank with the GX pistons. A2s get 135. The problem is that we don't know what to expect from the larger bore in interms of base HP

Us n00bs can use search engines too! XD

EDIT: Found another but can't calculate cause at work right now:

http://www.dmperf.com/compression.htm

[djmota]

the problem i see with the gx pistons is the valve reliefs. will they clear a stage 2 or 3 cam? or will there be piston to valve contact. an aftermarket piston will definatly have the room. and on a street drivin sohc car 12.5 is a bit high. 11.5 would be a better safer choice.

[civic-driver]

alright well like i had mentioned earlier i had been thinking about a lower regrind and some cheap fuel management. well i think i found a regrind between a stage one and two for 225 from a very reputable place( before i say there name i will wait for a confirmation from them) and a Vafc2 for 100 bucks.
my first question, should i have to worry about valve clearances( i know it depends on lift and such but i dont have all the specs yet) with the stock pistons?
my second question is would i be able to tune the car well enough with the Vafc2? im not familiar with it( or tuning anything for that matter) and am not sure if it runs off of fuel maps or is it just going through it and adding or subtract fuel at certain points on the device? my delima is that i want to install it myself but to get the right tools i would have to do it at home over my thanksgiving break which is about a week long then i would have to make the 5 hr drive back with whatever "tune" i could do by myself as there are no tuners in my small town. do you guys think i could getting it running well enough for the drive back to school? almost forgot, what is the best way to do a street tune? would it be necessary to buy a wideband for this project(not the larger one)? is there anyway to get a data chart of where is lean or stoich from the cars data port? could this all just be done with a normal A/F gauge? input is welcome

as to the piston compression i was thinking somewhere in the 11's. i was originally was thinking in the twelves but i guess it is a lot harder to get tuned safely.
another question i have is how much does altitude effect gas octane? i was told by a friend that likes muscle cars that in higher altitudes like here in colorado you can run a lower octane that what is recommended for your compression ratio. any comments on this?

thanks guys

[civic-driver]

one more dumb question but the vafc2 will work even though i dont have vtec right? if it just dont connect the wire and set it to a passive mode it should be fine right? thanks

[TRIZ]

Wow.. loaded post.

First question: piston/valve clearance
You shouldn’t have to worry. Its possible that they could make a grind that would throw your valve into your piston, but that’s unlikely. If your using after market pistons, you will have to worry a little more. This can be a little tricky to figure out. Although you will probably be running aftermarket springs, I don’t think you'll have to worry about these becoming a factor. If valve lengths are the same, and lift is the same, then it will be the same as stock- duration is the other factor that comes into play with the valves- but this is simply the amount of time the valve is held open vs closed. So- if its stock pistons, and stock lift, then you don’t have to worry. If its a different lift, then find out what’s the clearance between the stockers when lifted (opened) to begin with, and see what the clearance is. I'm sure you can find this in the downloadable repair manual under head specs or something.

Second question: tuning with the vafc2
From the build that I had envisioned that you would undertake, a vafc2 wont help you to any degree worth speaking of. If you just want a mild cam swapped in, then you should be fine. You wont be able to raise the rev limit, or put in fuel maps of course, but you shouldn’t need to kuz the stock ecu will correction for air/fuel to an extent. The vafc2 doesn’t have fuel maps, it just changes the signal that the stock ecu spits out. I cant think of a great analogy but say you have a valve that controls water flow--The end result you want is to have the water a different path, but you can only adjust the flow of the water, not where it goes. The vafc2 will only adjust the flow, and cannot totally change the map. So you probably will have problems with leaning out, or being too rich though out the curve. Just getting the vafc2 hooked up can be made easy with the dezod pnp harness which is around 120 bucks if I remember correctly. Your car should be completely drivable unless you go in and change the settings after hooking it up.

As for the octane vs altitude:

What is the effect of altitude?

The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear, with one study reporting
a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m
and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m [27]. Other studies report the octane
number requirement decreased by 1.0 - 1.9 RON/300m without specifying
altitude [38]. Modern engine management systems can accommodate this
adjustment, and in some recent studies, the octane number requirement was
reduced by 0.2 - 0.5 (R+M)/2 per 300m increase in altitude.
The larger reduction on older engines was due to:-
- reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
- fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases
the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
- manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum
results in less spark advance.

The higher up the hill you go, the less air there is- which results in less air pressure. Lower compression = lower octane requirement

You might also want to read this for more in-depth discussion of octane vs altitude: http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jre...45.N02.A05.pdf

Link to vafc2 manual: http://www.apexi-usa.com/pdfInstallation/25.pdf



As for the other questions, I'll let someone else take those. The turbo guys are the ones to talk to about tuning these days.

[civic-driver]

thanks for the info triz and dont worry i wont be sticking with the Vafc2 for very long. It will just be used on this mini build that i hope to get done before Christmas. the purpose to be for something to tinker on and to get a little more familiar with the insides of my car.So any more help with the street tuning? possible options on monitoring A/F and those other questions? thanks guys

[civic-driver]

Headwork

P&P with Larger valve bore etc -$700-1000
Depending on company and level of porting either Endyn or KMS
http://theoldone.com/components/cyli...g_and_Menu.htm
http://www.honda-performance.com/services-porting.asp

conversion to vtec head and possible new engine-$300-600
complete head swap with new ecu buy off a wreck or new engine from wreck

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Camshafts Depending on Vtec vs Non

Vtec Head D17A2:

Stage 2 or 3 camshaft-$380 Crower
http://www.dezod.com/cat_camshafts.cfm

Non-Vtec Head D17A1:

Custom ground camshafts: $325-480 dollars Crower or Colt Cams , both have been emailed and will make a custom grind for our car
To B. Campbell,
Thank-you, for contacting us.
Sorry we have not seen this model as of yet.
However, I have been working with cams for over 25 years and designing
something new has always been my one of my passions.
A few questions need to be answered first on the valve train, example: solid
or Hyd lifters, roller or flat tappet, sohc or dohc etc.
We would need to see your cam first to determine what the stock lift and
duration is. At this point I can design something with you over telephone
that will suit what you're after as well as cost.
There is no charge if we can't do anything for you. We will also pay for
the return shipping back to you if this is the case.
If you are interested please give us a call at your convenience and I will
go over the details.
Thank-you,
Geoff Bardal
FOR OUR U.S. CUSTOMERS REGARDING SHIPPING
When sending in your cams, via any courier service or the post office.
Please put as the value of the cams to be under $10.00.
This falls under NAFTA and no duty charges will be inflicted on you.
Please put on the way bill as well as on the package.
"Damaged Camshaft for Repair and Return"
PAYMENT
We only accept International Money Orders in US funds made out to Colt Cams
Inc.
COLT CAMS INC.
#54 - 3347 262 nd Street
Langley, BC
V4W 3V9
TEL: (604) 856-3571
FAX: (604) 856-3572
www.coltcams.com
geoff1@coltcams.com
www.coltcams.com

Brent,
If it is going to be a custom grind you are going to have to send in the specs along with your cam. The price for that would be $100 and the motor that you have is a non vtec, the D17A2 is a vtec motor. the cams are different. We dont make cams for single cam non vtec honda motors. but if you can get the specs that you want for your cam, we can do it.



Thank You,

Marco Romero
Crower Cams & Equipment Co.
Phone (619) 690-7806
Fax (619) 661-6466

http://www.crower.com/cat/import/honda/cams/d17a2.shtml

Also Bisimoto might also be able to do a regrind for $225 im still waiting for a response.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spring and retainer-$300-350 Crower or Supertech http://www.dezod.com/cat_camshafts.cfm

Valves +.5 mm overbore set-$265 KMS performance
http://www.honda-performance.com/info-lv2.asp?id=312


so that brings to headwork with a vtec head to: $1995
headwork without vtec to : $2095
headwork and conversion to vtec : $2595

all without labor and shipping costs on some
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom End


Sleeves-$250 Darton $750(installed by Darton)
http://www.darton-international.com/sl_import.htm
The only sleeves we have for the D17 blocks are the 300 Series open deck sleeves. The sleeves come for stock bore size and have a max bore of 77mm. You can go with a 78mm bore on the D16 block but the D17 is casted differently than the D16 so they would not use the same sleeves. The D17 300-011 sleeves take about a week to make and cost $250.00 for the set. Installation is an additional $500.00 and takes about 15- 20 days.

Let me know if you have any more questions.


Thanx,

John


John Catapang
National Sales Manager
Darton International, Inc.
2380 Camino Vida Roble Bldg. K
Carlsbad, CA. 92011

sales@DARTON-international.com
tel:
tel2:
fax:
800-713-2786
760-603-9895
760-603-9629


Pistons: $500-520 stock bore vs custom bore Wiseco

http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Automobile.aspx

Brentt,
We can custom make the part for that bore and whatever compression you would like. Cost is approximately $139.36 each (includes rings,pins,clips and coated skirts) and it takes 4-5 weeks.
Best Regards,
Wiseco Piston Co. Inc.

Crankshaft lightening- $465 – KMS
http://www.honda-performance.com/ser...ning.asp#crank

Connecting Rods- $785 – Crower Maxilite
http://www.dezod.com/pd_crower_maxilite.cfm

there is a rumor of carrillo making a cheaper version for rods.

Shot peened and balanced connection rods- $135 if you don’t want aftermarket and just a little more insurance




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







Fuel Managment
Standalone ECUs- $1000-2000 Hondata K-Pro or AEM EMS
Hondata depends on price of donor ecu
http://www.dezod.com/cat_engine_management.cfm
http://www.hondata.com/prices.html

Return line Kit with fuel pump upgrade:$650 Street Level Performance
http://www.streetlevelperformance.co...ion%20Kit.aspx ( this could also be pieced together for a little cheaper)

Larger Injecters-$100(used)- 546(new) RSX injectors
http://www.dezod.com/cat_honda_oem_parts.cfm


Intake manifolds or ITBs

ITB- $500- 3000 Danstoy, Hayward Performance Intake Systems, ExtrudaBody, DIY

http://extrudabody.com/Products/ITBs.html

http://www.haywardperformance.com/intake.htm#custom

Our custom ITB setup will run for 1,200.00. That is hardware only. We can either use Toyota 20 valve ITB's 40mm, 44mm or brand new TWM ITB's which are a little more pricier. You would also need to run a Full stand alone management.

Feel free to ask us any more questions if you have them

Jed
Manager of Danstoy
http://www.danstoy.net/products.html


Custom NA intake manifold- $1050-1250 Endyn

We haven't built one for the D17's. We have built a few D16 manifolds, however.
I'd have to see one of the stockers to tell you if we could do it.
Be prepared though....the fabbed manifolds run in the $1050-1250.00 range.

http://theoldone.com/components/

*all prices where what they quoted me a while ago so they dont represent what you could pay*

[civic-driver]

well i guess i missed the header in my list i wrote up ... put down the wrong version... whoops ..... any way go here if you want a set: http://theoldone.com/components/head...ng_headers.htm
and it says that custom made ones start at $1375 and yes they are remarkable headers. production models start at $795 but there isnt one for the D17. it is possible you could get them straight from hytech but im not sure i havent contacted them

[civic-driver]

well bisimoto finally emailed me back saying that they will do a custom ground level 1.5 for the LX. they said it would take 7-10 days once they receive a core. They didnt say a different price so im guessing normal d-series prices apply. I have to get my exhaust in order before i can get it so we will see when that happens. just wanted to let you guys know that that was another option and the price is good too.

[TRIZ]

This thread is still in progress, and will continue being updated by the OP.

Please direct your comments on this matter to this thread: Detailed D17 NA Build Research- COMMENT HERE!!!!