[civic-driver]

ok so here is where i stand on what i am planning on doing next summer if money provides. i want to resleeve block with darton sleeves and bore to 77mm.get the Wiseco 77mm custom NA pistons with an undecided compression. i am currently debating on whether to swap the head and get the stage 3 A2 crower camshaft with new springs and retainers ( either supertech or crower) . I'm between having KMS and energy dynamics do the head porting with new .5mm overbore valves and a decent valve job. right now that is the extent of the build i will be doing. i would like to get a custom header and ITB setup but thats another 2500 right there. Im going to try and find a wreck with under 40,000-50,000 miles to put in place of my current 83,000 mile engine. hopefully i can find a manual tranny with axles ECU and everything else (another build in its self) to replace the auto tranny currently plaguing my car. whether its the a2 or a1 i don't think i will be picky about because either way i see the building being a pretty monstrous one. and for everyone that is wondering what my hp goals are i am not going to jump to conclusions and get my hopes up. i would rather be surprised when i get the final dyno. the goal is to keep the price of the build under 2500 (excluding the new engine). so i will be doing as much of the work myself as possible. i know this list will probably change but that is where i currently stand in my thinking. so what is the verdict? anything that should be reconsidered? anything to be improved upon? what compression would you guys suggest to keep the car running on pump gas if that is even possible at this point. thanks guys

[TRIZ]

Its possible, and very likely to keep it running on pump gas.

I'd say your build price is going to go over budget- like you said, an ITB and custom header is that much.

You might want to look into portflowing, to be on top of whatever fabericators you choose.

With a stage three cam, it'll be rough, but do able.

If you switch to a manaul, you might have to grab a new clutch and flywheel down the line to handle the power (if applicaple). Plus, you can save some weight on thoes components = more useable power to the wheels.

Its a good idea to grab the spare engine, I might have to be on the look out for a new block now!

I picked up the stage 2 a2 cam, crower valve springs and ti retainers already. I havent installed yet.

Your going to need to run a stand alone ems. I'm going to run hondata, but you could pick aem or whatever you want. So dont go grabbing the next civic ecu that you find.

As far as the valves... (you knew I would haunt you on this) Are you planning on running +.5mm on both intake and exhaust side? What about coated vs non coated / stainless? How did you come to this conclusion? What research do you have to back this decision up?

With the camshaft and the valve springs, you can push the redline up for a more useable power band. You'd then be good to 9,000 RPM redline, or at least thats what crower says. And no, you cant change the redline or the fuel mixture with the stock ecu. Standalone for the win... $1k+

Other then that, sounds pretty good. We'll be the only two people doing an NA build. I think I'm going to have to push mine off till next summer too. I dont want to have to slop it together now and pay the price later.

Words of wisdom... your going to need a new gasket pack- you can buy it from honda directly, or you can grab one off ebay... I got mine off ebay, from the same dude as speedfoos. It looks to be top quality. Many people say dont run the head gasket, or the valve seals... but the look identical in every way to the stockers, and I havent heard any problems from anyone about these guys. They are shipped directly from japan, suprisingly- how do I know... kuz of the japanese sheet of newspaper that was packed in with it to protect it. I also had to grab new valve guides. From the stealership they are ~$160ish, shipped from majestic, they are $105ish. Technically I didnt need to do this, but when your building a used motor, you dont know where its been, but you know where you want it to go... might as well be on the safe side. With oversized valves, this eliminates the need for that paste and grind concept.

[greeen01civic4d]

this is by far the best N/A build post ive seen on this website, period. +1 for u civic-driver, im impressed at all the research uve done, i have an a1 too, so im very curious at how ur cam works out, if u do decide to do this mod, i want to know ur cost for cam replacement, as i want a slightly more aggressive cam profile as well, good work, keep it up

[civic-driver]

ok let me rephrase the 2500 budget part. thats what im trying to spend for the headwork valves,retainers , springs , camshaft , sleeves, and pistons. which is i think at 2200 without any labor ( i think). that is what will be bought first i believe. also thinking about getting the crankshaft knife edged and micropolished.i really dont want to get new rods which i know i should but i dont know that i want to rev it to the full 9000 rpm. so if it will be needed on the 7500-8000 i want to do im not sure but ya.

i am planning as of now on getting the .5mm overbore unless i find something that convinces me otherwise. as for the coated versus stainless, i want to get the black nitride coated (http://www.honda-performance.com/info-lv2.asp?id=312) just because from what i have found they hold together better ,disperse heat better and have less friction in the valve guides. i guess using normal bore with regular stainless valves is worthless in most applications so i said what the hell and kinda went with it. the guy i emailed never emailed me back on the valve questions so im not sure right now thats just where i stand.

as for fuel management im really open to what you guys suggest. i was leaning towards k-pro just because i have heard good things but i dont know if it has limits in comparison to standalone AEM. im really curious to see if i would have to get new injectors for the setup. i will probably go with this (http://www.streetlevelperformance.co...ion%20Kit.aspx) when i get to the fuel demands stage with the fuel management and possible the rsx injectors if it reaches that stage(dont know if it will).

yes i was planning on getting new gaskets and seals everywhere but thanks for posting it in case some one see this and gets inspired lol. as for the flywheel and clutch i was already planning on it just because it will be a used tranny so might as well replace while its off the car. also going to get the revo shift assembly because i think it will be easier to find than a stock one.
just for clarification the ITB and header will be in the years to follow so that i will still have things to upgrade.
was there any suggestions on compression ratios? that is still kind of foreign to me other than knowing 12:1 and higher is pretty much considered "high" compression. knowing what will actually work ...
well ya. anyway just thought i would throw this post up before i hung out with my automotive engineers club. we have a mini baja vehicle with a 10 hp engine.thing is a blast to drive.the club is just a bunch of other mechanical engineering majors like myself bullshiting and havine fun. we are working on the tranny and rear suspension right now. gearing is to high for the hills and the geometry is off on the rear. gotta love college heh. alright later guys

[civic-driver]

ok well as promised triz i sent the "old one" another email and asked him what he suggested and i sent him the specs for your cam so he could get a better idea. i saw that family car seemed to agree with my on the 1mm being overkill on the N/A yes flow testing would probably be in order to tell for sure but ya.

To continue i was thinking about the not getting new rods and crankshaft and what could be done to help it and not totally kill the bank. I came across a site that does some relatively cheap cryo treating : http://www.metal-wear.com/racing_component_prices.htm
i was thinking getting the camshaft , the crankshaft, and the connecting rods. the crank being micropolished and the knife edged first ( would that cause any issues?). that was just a thought on something to reinforce them a bit and such.

any thoughts on any other services coating etc. that could be done on any internal parts that would help keep the engine alive longer? also any that would help increase the performance? im trying to look at many different things that will help out in the long run. possibly the black nitride coating that is done on the valves applied to something else? ok i will continue looking and you guys have a good one later.

[civic-driver]

bump for thoughts on k-pro vs AEM for stand alone? or any other services to look into?

possibly thinking of a 11:1 compression ratio for the pistons that seems to be the consensus on honda tech on what is acceptable in lower elevations and i live in Colorado so my car has never even seen sea level so i should be in the clear with 91 gas. possibly lower we will see.

I am also between the stage 3 and stage 2 camshafts at the moment because i'm worried about idle and the stage 3 putting the powerband up higher than i would like. im a fan of low to midrange power which i know isnt common in our cars. so im thinking if i stick to the stage 2 the mid range will still be preserved and i will also get more top while sacrificing the lower a lot less. hopefully the losses in certain areas will be offset by the higher compression pistons.

Just a little update before going to class. later guys

B

[civic-driver]

Also i screwed the email up i sent to "the old one" when i put the cam specs in so he couldn't read it. so i re-did it and sent it again.

one thing i forgot to bring up was the oil issues in a higher revving motor. I was considering getting the oil pump modified to increase flow. another service offered by Endyn. they also have a extra oil adapter which seems good in theory and i thought it might be a good idea as well:
http://theoldone.com/components/Oil%...umbing_kit.htm.
any comments on this? and as i havent really looked at the way things are plumbed where would i attach the oil line if i were to use this.

i also came across this speedfoos and was wondering if this is really what you were trying to make? : http://theoldone.com/components/breather/

Ok well that should be the last update for the day later guys


B

[susuking]

is it really necessary for the oil pump? maybe later down the road when you rev it up to 9000rpm. but in order to do that, you would have to strengthen bottom end or else it would kaboom. And about the cryo,, wouldn't it make the iron brittle? i duno, have to read more to find out.

btw, anyone ever thought of using GX piston? i should be ok to use the stock bore with its higher compression and stronger rod.

[civic-driver]

I have heard of people using the gx pistons before im not sure of their results or what sort engine management they used but im sure it wasnt easy. if i was planning on the standard bore i would look into it a lot more with a 12:5:1 i believe comp ratio.

I would say that the oil pump is not necessary but my thinking is it mas made for stock application and this isnt one, larger bore high revving etc... so it cant really hurt to have a little better oil flow in there.

as for the cryo making the metals brittle this is try only if the person doesnt know what they are doing. if the metal is gradually cooled then return to norm it doesnt make it brittle it just make it a little harder and changes a few characteristics making it wear better.

I have been sending emails back and forth with the old one for a couple days and he is reluctant to work on or engines because of the bad lower geometry that i mention in a earlier post but i am making progress with him so i will update you with that when i can.

triz i have yet to find an answer to your question but i did find in someones NA build list on a b-series that they had a 1mm increase on intake and a 2mm!! on the exhaust sooo im not sure what to think on the issue now. I kind of have a theory that the intake velocity is important to maintain so too much of an enlarged valve could kill that but in the exhaust it should be more important to just get it out of the cylinder but that is just my unstructured theory.

i have also been looking into the ITB setup again and seriously thinking of making my own setup. 1 for some performance if i can figure out so obstacles and 2 for the awesome sound i would expect. After looking into ITB setups a little more i found that to make them help with power in anyway you have to make the volume in the velocity stack equal to the amount of air used in a combustion cycle ( or something along those lines). if its larger then the velocity slows and you get the same effect as an overly ported head. so the way i see it is that as long as i can stay away from making the velocity stack too large there will still be some benefit even if its not on the money with the best possible size. So this leads me on the quest of finding what type of motorcycle TB to use and if i stick to a honda setup would the throttle sensor match up any better. i plan on welding the TB to the D17 Injector plate so that i wont have to get different fuel rail and such. im going to see if i can find a formula or something to use with the ITB and to see what motorcycle TB's are supposed to do well in the homemade world. Thats the newest update. later guys

B

[TRIZ]

Werds. Been to dseries.org?

Oh crap, how come I cant pull up that site... shit, looks like its been hacked... anyone know about that?

[susuking]

triz, it looks fine to me... its at, http://http://www.d-series.org/forums//index.php?

[civic-driver]

alright well the past week has been filled with stress and exams so i havent been able to look up a whole lot of information. I did go to d-series to look at there home itb stuff but alot of the links didnt work but i did find some places with useful information. The most helpful has been :http://www.team-integra.net/sections...?ArticleID=484
Although its based of a b-series (i think) it still give me some basic ideas on what dimensions would be needed for the setup. I guess if you use the honda cbr throttle bodies you dont have to worry about tps sensor because its supposed to be the same in all hondas and they have 35 or 37 mm TBs so that seems to be the best for our engine. Does anyone know the distance from the valve to the start of the IM? that and a general diameter of the Intake port? im really hoping to make this car have alot of low end as i have mentioned earlier so i will try to design the ITBs for a lower to mid powerband. im nowhere near finished looking up things for the ITBs but that is the little update on them.

I have also looked into the LX head Vs the EX head again and i am leaning towards keeping the lx head again. I say this because i believe that the vtec-e is going to work against me in the low to mid powerband. i say this because the way i understand it is that the A2 head has the 12 valve to 16 valve switchover which creates the economy swirl. While the lx head has the 16 valve at all times. going off that i would say that the A2 head is going to be more restrictive in lower and mid rpms. i know be staying with the A1 with the larger profile will make the car a little less friendly for DD but i think it would like it more. hopefully i can get a nice camshaft from the colt cams place that will help maintain the idle.

On a side note does anyone know if there is any truth in the rumor around of crower making an lx camshaft? or is it just talk around the campfire? also the other day i about crapped myself because i thought i found a production IM made by obx. The problem is that the website is "under construction" now. It was: http://www.tuningdepot.com/makersear...?&cid=2&page=4 but since the day after i found it the site has said that so i was all confused and looked around and couldnt find it anywhere else. It had models for turbo app. and NA app. and said that they were for the D17 motor so ya. im guessing it is just a D16 IM that they are trying to sell for the D17 but still it was an interesting find.

alright well i have to write a paper. Later

B

[TRIZ]

I'd help u out on the head measurments of an A2 head, but I'm down at college, and mine is back at home. *snap!*

Dont forget about the runner length and everything. If I go ITB down the road, I'll design carbon fiber runners, and find a way to plug a filter on the end. But thats finishing touches compared to where everything is at now. It would be nice to tear apart one of thoes $1,000 k20 ITB's and modify the mechanicals for our engine. I sadly dont have that kinda money, and probably neither do you.

[civic-driver]

don't worry i am well aware of all the different variables involved in the process. right now its seems that i will need a fairly long runner with anywhere from 30-40 mm bore on the valve. im not sure if i will be able to run a taper and everything but we will just have to see along with many other parts of the itb system. i have the same problem with being down at college. Its a 5 and a half hour drive to my house. i feel helpless without all my tools.

[civic-driver]

i have been looking into camshafts as of the past 2 weeks. I am thinking about trying to sell my ghetto maxxim 17" rims and this flat panel 19" tv that isnt getting used. I am going to try and get enough money for some sort of fuel management(other than emanage, probably a vafc2) and a cam regrind. I know i should probably hold out and get a nice fuel management but im in college and havent got to work on my car for a little over a month. yes i know im addicted. ok so i have been looking into the specs that i want to base them off of about half way between the crower stage one and NA two specs.

I have a basic under standing of the way a camshaft can increase performance with valve lift height and duration. I am still a little confused on what certain parts of the profile mean but im still looking into it. I found these specs for the cam lobe height for the stock LX and EX engines:

Cam lobe height for D15Y2, D15Y3, D15Y5, D15Y6, D17A1, D17Z1 engines Intake 35.299 mm (1.3897 in.) -
Exhaust 37.281 mm (1.4678 in.)


Cam lobe height for D17A2, D17A5 engines
VTEC intake, primary 38.604 mm (1.5198 in.) -
VTEC intake, secondary 32.848 mm (1.2932 in.) -
VTEC exhaust 38.784 mm (1.5269 in.) -

Im not sure how these translate into valve lift yet or if that is in fact what they are right now but im still trying to find the info. I also have been looking at the profiles that Crower has listed on there site and none of them line up with what i have found. so im a little confused at this point.

From what i have found i want to increase the lift and the duration( less duration that lift increase). Problem with the increased lift is the risk of valve float and extra stress on the stock springs. Im still not sure if valve float would only occur if the rev limit was raised. Im trying to figure out at this point basically what is the max cam i can run without upgrading the valvetrain.

This is basically a little update to see if you guys can tell me more of the fine details while i continue to look around for more info. I will continue to look around and thanks for any input you guys have.