alaga

A month ago, I bought a CPO 2014 Civic LX sedan with less than 150 miles on the clock. According to Carfax (grain of salt), it was first titled to the dealer as a service loaner. It's my second one, my first being a 2005 Civic Hybrid.

First thing I noticed was an intermittent 'bouncy' feel to the ride at slow speeds along some rougher city streets. Then on my first little roadtrip, less than a week after I bought the car, I experienced a disturbing roughness to the ride at freeway speeds. It didn't feel like a tire out of balance, but just a roughness. It's felt in the steering wheel.

Backstory: With a practically brand-new Civic, I could think of only one thing that could be causing this: bad tires. Especially since they were Firestone Affinitys (had out-of-round and broken belt problems with a set I'd bought several years ago). The dealer "couldn't duplicate" the ride issue ... well, duh, they didn't get it over 60 on the interstate. So I went by the warranty manual which said to take tire issues to a mfr's dealer ... went to a local Firestone Tires Plus, who said one of the tires was out of round. Saw it while he spun it. Back to the dealer, since that Affinity was an OEM model, and they replaced it .... only after I gave the Tires Plus document with the diagnosis, who then went over the service advisor's head. Got a new tire.

This didn't correct the issue. I knew what I was up against when dealing with the tires, so I hauled off and dropped $400 on a new set of BFGs -- the same kind of tires I'd had on my previous car. Figured this would either make the problem go away, or - heaven forbid - I'm now looking at a problem with the car.

Just got back from a 400 mile trip, in which the ride disturbance was every bit the same. It ain't the tires. Had all types of pavement, including asphalt that was laid in the last couple of weeks. Silky smooth, yet I still had a rumbly ride. That stretch was easy to test things out.

What I noticed:
* Mainly 40-55 and 63+ ... oddly there's a spot in there (55-63 or so) that the car feels mostly smooth.

* Feels rough on acceleration, get it to a constant speed and it's smooth for about 2-3 seconds before the vibration/roughness returns.

* When I turn the wheel slightly it exaggerates the rough feeling, especially to the right.

* Roughness varies in intensity ... sometimes goes away for a second or two before returning.

In addition to this, I've noticed the 'bouncy' quality to the ride at slow speed (15-30 mph) became a bit more pronounced during this trip.

I've got a service appointment with the dealer for first thing in the morning, and - hopefully - the service manager will go along with me for a ride. What I hope won't happen is that he will claim not to notice it, or say that Civics normally ride this way (uh uh - I know better).

I'm thinking possibly two things at this point: something in the front end steering or struts. But wait - this is a 2014 Civic with what is now 2,000 miles. Maybe something just needs to be tightened?

Maybe the transmission mount is loose or broken? I once had a Ford Focus and this happened .... the vibration (though a bit worse) was similar in how it presented itself.

*********
In retrospect I wish I had gotten this car up to freeway speed in the test drive .... but, well, I thought it's a new Civic, I liked how my '05 did on the highway, and refinements and updates since then can only be better.

Also, I hope I wasn't gullible in buying this ..... as I think back, why would the dealer unload a titled loaner car into the certified pre-owned pool with so few miles on it?

I have a copy of the Honda CPO checklist, although I'm beginning to think the service tech saw that the car had 150 miles on it, and just checked every box without looking closely. Two minutes of work instead of two hours.

Anyway, thanks for reading this long post. Whatever insight this brain trust can offer is most appreciated......

Russell - Louisville, Ky. area

ezone

Definitely take someone for a demo ride. Manager, tech, foreman. SOMEone has to know exactly what your problem is.

Test drive it before you take it home, make sure it is fixed.

You might go wheel around in a brand new one too, for comparison.



Mileage that low, yet sold as a USED car? I hope you got a killer deal on that..........

150 miles.....that's not typical mileage of a service loaner. No way.
I have guesses but I don't want to say what I think. Yet.


It's under warranty, either let the dealer handle it as a warranty issue or make them fix it to your satisfaction if it is not a warrantable matter.




Wheel bearing? Nah, that would be too simple. LOL
A lot can happen in 150 miles.

It might behoove you to have someone else (someone qualified and familiar with the cars, maybe a different dealer, definitely someone observant) inspect the car to see if they can figure out the real reason it was sold as a used car with only 150 miles on it.
There's always a reason a used car is for sale.

If the person inspecting is really sharp, you may not like the answers you get.... I hope I'm wrong, but your story just screams.....

alaga

The very tiny eternal-optimist in me hopes it was for tax reasons or something else benign. Online ratings for this dealer are unusually good, though. And it's right around the corner from me. Literally walking distance.

If I hit a stone wall, I'll take two paths - first, I'll have another go-around with the salesperson (I haven't yet received any "customer satisfaction surveys" from Honda ..... unless they don't do that for certified pre-owned sales), and from there escalate it to Honda customer support, for whatever good it'll do.

There are two other dealers in the metro area. The big question is, how will their service departments act toward cars purchased at other dealers? (Ford dealers, I've found, are notorious for their service blowing off customers bringing in cars purchased elsewhere) I'll pursue those if it comes to that. Maybe even drop money toward getting a full-tilt inspection done by an independent.

I did get a good deal on the car, both price and swinging a good APR from Honda. And the 48,000 bumper to bumper / 100k powertrain was quite appealing.

I hope not. If you feel like it, go ahead and spot me your thoughts.

Nothing else with the car raises any red flags .... just the harsh ride. But everything else aside, anybody have thoughts on that problem?

dlayman

Having owned both a 2005 coupe and a 2015 sedan, I kind of feel you don't really have a problem. My 05 came with Dunlop FE tires, designed for soft ride and fuel economy, while the Firestone tires I believe are H-rated and supposedly performance oriented. What Goodrich tires did you go with? If they are the Advantage T/A they are known for a harsh ride. Personally, I don't have much skepticism that anything bad happened to your vehicle
before you bought it, but you're feeling the different suspension tuning and different ride qualities of the tires. You're right that the Firestone tires aren't the best, I plan to replace with Cooper CS5. Honda Civics seem to be VERY sensitive to tire choice. I tried a Kumho tire that was well regarded on my 05, and it was unlivable.

alaga

T/A touring. I've had them before without ride issues. Their only drawback is you're doing well to get more than 40k out of a set.

I do get the tightness of the Civic's suspension -- it's not unlike the '09 Ford Focus I had before. Feeling every little bump in the pavement is something I'm used to. Feeling a harsh and unsettled/shaky ride on pavement softer than a baby's skin is another. Even the cheapest Primewell crap tires will ride smoothly over that kind of asphalt.

The ride feel is virtually unchanged from the stock Affinitys. If the OEM tires are supposed to be 'mated' to the vehicle, that was a poor choice!!

dlayman

You definitely shouldn't have a ride as harsh as you're describing it. The Civic sedan has a softer suspension than most cars in its class. I have a 15 LX sedan, and I find it to have comfortable quiet ride. Even bad surfaces, bumps etc. the ride is composed and the bump felt but muted. Any odd noises? Tire pressures set to recommended psi, not max pressure posted on tires? I would definitely recommend test-driving another civic LX sedan, possibly at a different dealer, to see how it compares.

As to the service department at another dealer refusing or hassling you because you bought it elsewhere, that's very unlikely to happen. The sales and service departments basically operate as two separate business operations. I always buy my Hondas at a dealer 100 miles away because they give me great discounts but service at my local dealer, who has an excellent service department. They don't treat any differently than they do the customers who bought there.

alaga

No odd noises to speak of. And I think I've landed on where the problem is: a bad wheel, apparently a warp in the rim. Tires are all set to 32 cold, even though I've usually run them at 34 in the past; I'm going by the recommended number while this is going on, to cover that base. ("33 psi? No wonder you're having a washboard ride!")

Update:

Took it in to my local dealer Tuesday AM. The service manager went with me on a run. He acknowledged the harsh ride, but - you guessed it - said it was the tires. The same service manager who wouldn't admit anything was wrong the first time I'd brought it in.

There was no way two different sets of tires would yield the same result (that's a coincidence on a Powerball level!!), so I pushed to have the suspension, steering and driveline checked. Left it there for the day.

Got a call that afternoon from the SM, saying they'd gone over everything "with a fine-toothed comb", and found nothing wrong. Went back to it being the tires. I then suggested it was the wheel (since the jitters were the same as after I took delivery), and thought it a good idea to swap out a set of wheels from the same kind of Civic and see how that would work. Since there wasn't time in the day for that, I asked in the meantime for them to rotate the tires. He seemed much nicer that afternoon, and willing to work with me to get this resolved.

Took it back out to the freeway, and confirmed that the shake moved to the rear.

Last night I went back to where I'd bought the tires (Sam's Club), and asked the person to check the rears, and to visually look at the rim as it's on the balancer. The tech said there was a warped rim in one of the rear wheels. Aha. That would explain a rumbly ride, yes? (which begs the question of why two different Hunter "road force" machines didn't catch this!!)

Went back to the dealer this morning, where I learned that the service manager of the dealership must be bipolar. He was pleasant when I talked to him over the phone, but this morning he was back to saying it was the tires. Very argumentative about it, too. But he said he'd look at the wheel today.

That's where we are right now. I can't help but feel in my gut that the SM's pride is going to be involved, and I'll hit a brick wall ... again. But I hope I'm wrong.

*********
Two questions:
1) How effective is Honda customer service, should I need to escalate this? Do they take these concerns seriously, i.e. would this be a waste of time?

2) Does Honda send out customer satisfaction surveys for certified pre-owned purchases, or is it only for new cars? (I think you know where I'm going with this one.....)

Thanks again.

Russell

dlayman

Sounds like you may have found the problem. Bent wheel could cause this. Although I've had a car with a bent wheel that drove just fine and had no problems balancing tire on it.

Honda corporate is hit and miss on helping with these things. But in this case, they're probably going to tell you they stand by their dealer. Even if they do agree its the wheel, you might have a problem in that they could say you or the tire installer caused the damage. I think you might end up biting the bullet and springing for a new wheel.

alaga

If they back up the dealer, that would be most disappointing. The certified pre-owned program is backed by Honda itself, right? And the dealership checked the item on the CPO list pertaining to ride quality. Wouldn't look too good for the dealer, or for Honda.

If there's a good thing, it's that the wheels are plain with covers - not alloy or decorative. I've seen them for as little as $60 on Amazon.

mikey1

pay the money and have a GOOD REPUTABLE KNOWLEDGEABLE independent mechanic inspect the entire front end, mainly the frame, sub-frame, lower control arms, struts, tie rods, steering rack etc etc,

tell him to look for something that looks like it might have been bent, at one time, or still is bent, or something that looks out of the ordinary on a "new car", something welded back together, etc etc

look for any parts that appear to have been replaced which should not have need to be replaced on a "new car",

sorry to say this but this story just reeks, i have a feeling something has happened to this car that you are totally oblivious to



.

dlayman

This is good advice. Your problems seem pretty severe for a slightly damaged wheel to be the only problem. and whatever damaged it could very possibly have damaged something else.

did you test drive the vehicle when you bought it? Did it ride badly then or was it OK? The fact that the dealer signed off as it riding it OK, and you accepted delivery of the car are going to work against you.

However, you could claim hidden defect, possibly. Especially if more damage is found. I hate to say it, but you are going to have to fight the accusation that YOU caused the damage, in that you accepted the car, presumably after test driving it (please don't say you didn't test drive it

alaga

Yes, I test drove it. My only mistake there was not getting it to freeway speed. What didn't help were the streets in the area not being really smooth to begin with, masking all kinds of ride disturbances. It's a big reason why it took going out of town to really figure some things out.

Most all of the bad ride moved to the seat after the wheels were rotated. That's encouraging, at least on the part of it being in the front end. I won't know for sure until I swap out the wheel.

If I get no results from this dealer this afternoon, my next action will be to get a second opinion at a tire dealer regarding the rim, then go to another dealer before just dropping the hammer on another wheel (again, I'm glad they're not expensive).

Worst case, if this does not completely cure the problem, I will indeed drop the $$ for an indie mechanic to give it a thorough once-over and continue the paper trail, hoping Indiana's lemon laws aren't full of holes. But I hope it doesn't come to this -- I really do like the car. I truly hate that my return to Honda has been so marred by this drama.

ezone

This is probably why your dealer didn't catch it.
Techs aren't going to drive more than a few miles unless they have to. That eats up valuable time.



I guess I'm lucky in that my dealership has highway and interstate super close in addition to country roads and railroad tracks so we can drive on all sorts of surfaces and speeds.

dlayman

I'd go to an indie mechanic first, explain your symptoms and what you've found and have them look the whole thing over. There could be other damage that isn't manifesting itself yet, but might at a later time. I'd rather have the complete picture of what I'm looking at before spending any money or taking this further with the dealer or with Honda. Even if you have a decent Midas near you, they should be easily able to assess if there are other problems. They wouldn't charge much at all to do this. If it hit something hard enough to bend a wheel, you're almost certainly out of alignment too, and you don't want that left unfixed.

alaga

The dealer (I'll go ahead and name it: Neil Huffman in Clarksville, Ind.) made a big production out of how they dismounted the tires on there and reseated them. The service manager (Dave G.) said the right rear tire had a wobble to it and recommended replacement. They "didn't have time" to get it to freeway speed to test it out [moral to self: for future car buying, find a dealer that's not in an urban area].

Anyway, I didn't argue with him, left quietly and and got back to a place where I could kick it up to 70. Sure enough, I felt the vibration in the seat like before.

So I went from there to a nearby BFG dealer (Raben Tire), where they pulled the right rear tire and put it on their balancer as I watched. The tire is fine, but only appears to be wobbling .... because there's a definite wobble in the wheel itself! The whole rim has a slight warp to it, almost like a vinyl LP!! The manager said that couldn't be caused by impact, just a manufacturing defect. I imagine, if this wheel is spinning that way, it must resemble the scene from "Vacation" when Chevy left that ripoff garage after crashing their station wagon in the canyon - if not to that comic extreme.

But wouldn't that explain the weird bouncy sensation at slow speeds and the jittery ride on the highway?

PS - Raben didn't even charge me for their time, and said if I brought them a new wheel, they'd mount the tire on it for $10.

Well, I guess I'm calling Honda CS in the morning to see about getting another Louisville area dealer to replace it under warranty. Failing that, I'll buy one and let Raben put it on to repay the kind gesture (then, if it solves the problem once and for all, I'd have a warped wheel as a souvenir .... I could take it to the dealer and present it to the SM as a love offering. Heh, that alone would be worth more than the 60-ish bucks I'd pay! )

alaga

This morning I called CS, and gave them an earful about the dealership and SM. I had everything documented and written down by date, which helped. He noted that I'd had two Hondas previous to this one.

I've been given a case number, and told a regional manager will be in touch on Monday. I set up an app't with another Louisville dealer for Tuesday morning. Saturday is bogged down at all dealers due to the airbag recall. That is, except for one .... guess which?

Maybe for grins this weekend I'll jack it up and replace that wheel with the doughnut, and see what that does. Getting it to 70 for maybe 30 seconds on an uncrowded freeway will not hurt anything, not for a spare that new. That is, provided it doesn't also have ride issues (the couple of times I've had to ride on one I haven't noticed any difference in the car's smoothness).

mikey1

i would never recommend 70mph on a "doughnut",

but hey, its your life

alaga

Eh. The way I figure it, if I've seen complete yahoos drive two hours on a busy freeway from Indianapolis to Louisville on a doughnut at speeds as high as 75 MPH -- and riding on a drive wheel at that -- I think I'll live if I do it on a quiet rural-ish freeway loop for less than a minute to troubleshoot.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like a good free test.

Should help in troubleshooting.

ezone

That's nothing. I saw one make it from California to about your area on a donut,


and they left the original aluminum rim on the side of the road in Cali.
.....Plus there was gold paint spilled all over the interior of the car, seed burns in the upholstery, etc. ....Car came to the shop as a repo, no wonder why. I wonder if the kids looked anything like this guy

alaga

Racked up the doughnut, and that took away much of the problem, nixing the slow-speed bounce. I did get up to 65-70 for about 20 seconds, where I observed a small roughness, including the steering wheel ... but that could well have been the doughnut itself. Either way, the ride was 75-80% better with that dinky spare versus that wheel.

Spoke this morning with a Honda district manager. He's going to talk to the service mgr. of the dealer I'll be visiting first thing tomorrow ... I've asked to have all the wheels checked, plus have the standard CPO "182-point" check done - a 'second opinion', if you will. The DM appeared to understand my concerns, so fingers are crossed.

alaga

UPDATE - lest you folks think I'm one of those who'll bellyache about a problem, and then not post how it turned out. ;-)

It was a bad wheel, and only a bad wheel. ******

Civic was taken to another dealer in the Louisville area (Jeff Wyler Dixie Honda), where the SM - who'd already spoken with the district mgr. - took charge of the situation. He quickly confirmed a warped wheel, and ordered a replacement.

The dealer redid the 182-point CPO check, and - in the SM's words - "this car is still perfectly new." Another point to note: the replacement was even more warped than mine, so they reordered .... and offered me a loaner car for the delay (something the selling dealer refused to provide). Wheel came in, and after it was put on, the SM himself took it out on the highway to confirm the fix. That solved everything; I'm now able to enjoy this new(ish) car.

Thanks to all for letting me bend your ears, and the feedback is also much appreciated.

****** = oh, the loaner car. It was a '15 Civic, with barely 1,000 miles on the clock. Took it out to 70 MPH, and guess what ..... the same damned vibration!!! Told the SM about it. I have to wonder how many warped steel wheels are on the LX sedans??

dlayman

That is really strange to encounter so many warped wheels. Honestly, I never even heard of such a thing. My 15 LX sedan is perfectly smooth up to as fast as I've driven it, maybe 85 mph. Anyway, glad it worked out for you. Too bad you ditched the OEM Firestone tires unnecessarily, they aren't great, but they're serviceable. At the least, one of them could have made a nice full sized spare tire, even on the warped wheel, for limited use.

ezone

Some people are more sensitive than others.
95% of the Civic drivers probably would not notice the same thing alaga noticed

I've had a few customers that could really notice small vibrations that would not have bothered me.

dlayman

I'm pretty sensitive to them too. That and noises, rattles. I've been lucky so far in that my LX is completely free of both so far.

Manufacturing deformed wheels sounds pretty disturbing. I don't know how much warping you would need to possibly brake the bead on the tire on a long highway drive and a hot day. I would think if this turns out to be widespread there will be a safety recall.

alaga

In a new car, you're damn right I'm sensitive .... especially when it was riding rougher than a 100k mile Ford Focus with the original struts!! At least that heap Focus was *paid for*!!! :-)

The tire never lost air, strangely enough. But it would never stay in balance. After it came off a machine, it would ride smoothly for 5-ish seconds before the shakes resumed.

I can't explain the oddness of the bad wheels -- the second dealer and another tire shop both said there were no signs of impact.

Yeah, a time or two I thought back and wondered if I needlessly dropped money on the new tires ........ and then I remember the bad experience I had with a previous set of Affinitys, the fact that they're OEM tires, and that the BFGs on there have a smooth, quiet ride. It's all good.