RIPSAW

Grand son has 2007 Civic Coupe going to college and maintenance light came on for engine oil and transmission fluid. Since it hard for me to keep up with him being away and the engine oil and filter changes are free, we get that done at the dealer. On 6-17-14 at 87034, they did the oil,filter and 4 qts SYN ATF 888 ,brake fluid, air and cabin filter. Not sure what that means SYN ATF 888. The brake fluid looked nasty when I caught up with him shortly after, so I redid that and complete change out of power steering fluid.

They charged me $56 labor,$25 materials and $18 shop for the ATF change, so I plan on catching it and most other since the total for the free oil change cost me $257.00 for the ATF and other misc maintenances above.

My real question is did they forget to reset the maintenance minder on the ATF since it only has apx 7K of miles on it? Know they reset the engine oil. Also, since I do not have manual since it's away with car, how many quarts do I need to change it on his Christmas break? 3 or 4?. Probably get that ATF filter on the back side of the ATF. Have not done this one. Did my CRV not long ago. Probably same filter. Anyone have a thread handy on changing it? Are the sparkplugs going to be at 100K? Anyone know if they are Denso or NGK? In the past, they have been Denso but my CRV where NGK. Appreciate the help.

ezone

DAFUQ is that crap?

(Google found it-- "Anderol 888 ATF...PAO Dexron III" ....Sounds like inferior crap to me. Definitely the wrong fluid. In fact, the Dexron III standard is now obsolete.)

What does the ATF look like now?

A D&F only gets about 3 quarts. Maybe they just bill 4 on everything, since most of the cars bigger than a Civic DO take more than 3. (Keeps the menu pricing in line.)

If you are gonna change the filter, you may want to get the extra quart.

If you also believe (as I do) they filled it with some crap fluid, you might want to get a case of the proper DW-1 fluid and flush it all out of there. Follow the published procedure for trans flushing from Honda. Let me know if you need a link.


And the kid needs some education about cars and shops.

The car has no idea if the fluid was changed or not, nor can it tell when. The MM number will still come up at its normal interval.

If the dealer reset the oil life, I'm pretty sure the trans reminder was cleared with it. No matter if it was really done or not.

I don't remember if those early cars could have individual MM items cleared individually, and almost nobody would bother to do that because you have to hook up the HDS scanner to even see if it is possible. That takes too damn long LOL.

RIPSAW

Thanks, they probably failed to reset it. The engine oil which is the only reminder that comes up at the % levels. There are 5 reminders. You need to page thru to see them. They are individual cleared. They probably just did not reset it and it just popped up when the oil one came up which had been counting down from 15% left. Going to go in tomorrow and ask to see what this is. Hope they used Honda. If not, will run 9 quarts thru and refill. I know when I buy from them, they sell the DW-1 in quarts over the counter. ATF looked good and red when they said they did it but it looked that way before he carried it in. Post the thread to your method. Do you have any idea of what the line that has the external filter going to the oil cooler in the radiator oil source comes from.. Is it just filter excess oil from a pressure relief that is diverted thru the cooler and back to the sump? The Collage parts man said I should not change it. Know the one I changed a few months back on my CRV had a lot more resistance then the new one when I blew thru it. However, it was oil soaked.

ezone

All reminder item #s that are showing at the time are cleared when the oil life is reset using the button on the dash.
If you have figured out how to only clear one item at a time, I'd love to hear how you did it.

You can view the upcoming reminder items by turning the key on and select the oil life %, then hold the reset button down until the oil life number begins flashing (approx 10 seconds). Turn the key off after viewing.
The 15% or less doesn't have to be showing, it can be done at any time.


Consumers are supposed to blindly assume they are getting the correct fluid and factory authorized parts...because dealership..

If you start asking questions they might have to kill you.

I'd put on a uniform shirt and stumble through the shop, see if there is a barrel of bulk trans fluid somewhere. LOL


Of course they do.

They aren't going to sell that 888 junk over the counter, it's probably in a 55 gallon drum.
This has a word-for-word copy of the Honda document on flushing the trans (just substitute the new DW-1 fluid for the old Z-1 fluid): http://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/...html#post13701

Note this came out long before the new DW1 fluid did, but the procedure hasn't changed.

I never bothered to trace out the lines.... I kinda assume it's filtered after leaving the ATF cooler.

Want a pic or two?




We don't change the filter on a regular fluid service unless someone requests it.


I cut one apart and took some pics....This one has a paper-like material so if soaked with oil it would be super hard to blow through.

Note the valve in the end, I think I figured it was to set bypass straight through in the event of filter clog...

ezone

Put on khakis, a collared shirt, and carry a clipboard. Act like you know what you are doing.
Look around, make marks on paper. Look some more.

RIPSAW

When they did the transmission, they simply said oil was dark. Only maintenance reminder was engine oil ( A sub item 1). So if reset does it all. Then now that it says (A sub item 1,3) 15% left on oil presently. Must be by changing transmission ahead of time, it confused reminder. The countdown for the transmission came up probably in error but obviously engine oil is due. Probably around 100K it will have an (Sub item 1 , 5 spark plugs) College Auto areed no telling what another dealer will do. He suggested a case of DW-1 cure just like you. Gave me a break on shipping since shipping was not free on fluids. what do you use for those small spring hose clamps. I have a dozen sets of pliers and all fall thru the slot in that small clamp. Looks like filter is in a tight spot on Civic. My CRV was below behind radiator and I used allen wrench to bridge gap to catch clamp. Maybe, a 90 degree needle noise pliers? Appreciate help. Going to get my clip board and find out what 888 is. Who knows, maybe Anderol bottles Honda DW-1. Know Honda get the good stuff from someone.

ezone

So the trans service was an UPSELL.

And upsold ahead of schedule. We do this all the time because we recommend trans services every 30k minimum. I don't think I have seen any of the MM cars ask for trans service earlier than that.

The minder is ignored completely and does not get the trans reminder reset, this gives the same scenario you are dealing with now.

NO it was not rest at that time.
NOW the minder comes up with that service as per its usual schedule.

NOPE, the minder system has no freekin clue about what's actually been done to anything.

Not any error on its part.

The minder system operates based on a model. There is no way for it to know what's actually happening with the car.

Coolant should come up somewhere around that time too. Maybe the next interval.

90 or 45 degree. Occasionally a set of straights can get on the clamps. Or wide jaw pliers. I have a buttload of pliers to choose from LOL

Nope.

Exxon-Mobil and Conoco-Phillips (they make Kendall and others) have been the major suppliers AFAIK.



http://www.anderol.com/Products

I typed 888 in their search bar and came up dry. Hmmm....

RIPSAW

I typed 888 in their search bar and came up dry. Hmmm.... I looked at every item they make. No 888 or ATM fluid. Guess only way i am going to find out is see the drum. by the way, Hiram Gutierrez..AT man on youtube says the oil is coming to the filter going back to the transmission, so your assumption was correct. it's not protecting cooler. I just assumed that since there is a procedure to clean cooler if a transmission failure occurs.

Made the clipboard tour. Saw no drums but the mechanics do take their plastic pitchers to the wall with a open window next to the parts and parts would fill them up with the oil. After a little persuasion, parts showed me a rack with large square containers (probably 200 gallon or so each) There were about 12 lever faucets labeled with generic labels. He told me the tank truck drives up on the rear wall and fills them. He told me he would get me the name of the product from his supplier. He said it was not Honda and he was getting very wary of my questions. Be surprised if I get an answer after he talks to his boss. That is also where they and probably the Toyota Dealer that gives me my free oil changes get's their oil. Is it a sham? Guess if I can get an answer, I need to take it to Honda Motors and see if they approve it for warranty work.

ezone

Did you seriously do this??? LOL


Those can hold anything. "Bulk" oils.
We have a few, ours are about 120 gal each IIRC.

Ours are written in Sharpie. Seriously.
I at least know what's in ours.
Ours hold Hondas spec bulk oil from the C-P delivery truck.
That's all I need to know.

Don't worry about it. Maybe he thought you were gathering info for a lawsuit or something.
If he's smart, the boss won't find out.

You already have a sufficient answer about the ATF anyway, right?

Probably, but before you assume a lot here you need to find out what exactly is being used for the oil changes.

The bulk is cheaper than the quart bottles, and they aren't likely to be filling every free oil change with high dollar oil.

In fact, the Honda approved bulk oil we get delivered to our shop is quite reasonable at our cost. (I have been putting this oil from Conoco-Phillips in my own cars, and I was putting the previous oils from Exxon-Mobil in all my cars too.)

At our shop we have the Honda approved engine oils in the bulk tanks, and we have the cheap and free oil changes for some customers. Nobody gets inferior oil here---unless they specifically ask for it.

We keep quarts of Honda labeled engine oils in the parts department, we don't normally use that in the shop. (We do use this oil in warranty repairs where the specific part numbers are called out.)
We use all other Honda fluids from normal bottles: ATF, CVT, MTF, PS, Coolant, Dual-Pump, VTM, etc.
Not at our shop.

There are many brands and blends of oils that do meet Hondas specs.

There are many more that don't.

You gotta read labels and know what specs you need (this is true of damn near anything).

If the dealer can get a deal on something that meets specs for less money than what they can get oil through the Honda oil program for, more power to them.

If they get the cheapest crap they can find and declare it golden, shame on them.




I wouldn't bark up that tree.
You can't prove they don't use the correct fluids for warranty repairs.

I believe that using the correct stuff benefits all involved. AFAIK the dealer may be free to $ell and u$e whatever they wi$h when cu$tomer$ are paying for it. I don't think it'$ right, but maybe that'$ why I'm not in management. Penny wise, pound foolish and all that.

RIPSAW

So, in your shop, you are doing transmission oil change comes out of a Honda bottle with the DW-1 on it. No matter what they say Monday, I simply need to flush it with my case of DW-1 oil. No big deal to me. Lesson learned. Dought it hurt anything with only 3 quarts of Dextron (probably) in it.

ezone

Absolutely! Actually, it's 3 or 4 bottles.


Your 2007 Civic Coupe owners manual states on page 230:


Always use Honda ATF-Z1
(automatic transmission fluid). If
it’s not available, you may use a
DEXRON III automatic
transmission fluid as a temporary
replacement. However, continued
use can affect the shift quality.
Have the transmission flushed and
refilled with Honda ATF-Z1 by
your dealer as soon as it is
convenient.

Note: Since that manual was printed, the Z-1 fluid has been updated to DW-1.

Wrong fluid really can make them feel funny.... Depends on what, how much, and who is noticing.
Some people really notice the smallest differences, and other people have no clue anything is wrong until the car stops moving.

RIPSAW

Does it affect the attitude or paycheck of the mechanics in the shop when people come in and take advantage of free lifetime services like oil changes and state inspections that dealerships off as incentives to customers to purchase new vehicles their?

ezone

(I live in an area that doesn't have inspections or test emissions.)


Depends on a bunch of factors, and remember, "all problems are management problems".


Paycheck? No. We must still get paid, but management will usually use the lowest cost labor first. Think about that for a while.

Attitude? Not to someone that ONLY does oil changes, but maybe yes to some of us that are there to do far more than just oil changes.

(Actually, maybe it's just me with the bad attitude?)

I can see some of the customers service history on our work orders and make an assessment from that. Is there anything other than free oil changes and recalls in the history? Has the customer spent any real money with the service department? Will they ever?
"ATTENTION VALUE SHOPPERS! This assclown will never spend a thin dime at our shop so don't even bother looking at the car!"


If I see that the customer does spend money with us, my attitude is much better. If I spend some time to really check the car over, there's half a chance I'll get to do stuff that needs to be done. "Hey, it needs some brakes" or "hey it's due for a timing belt", or "hey it has oil leaks", or whatever....and I won't hear a crap line like...."Oh I'll have my regular mechanic look at that." Really? Your "regular mechanic" didn't notice any of this .... stuff already?


Maybe if I get more fiber in my diet I could be a regular mechanic too?

RIPSAW

I get your point. Been doing all my own stuff since starting out with a 52 Studebaker in 1964. 66 now and still enjoy it. Even maintain couple grandkids cars. Usually farm out exhaust but actually most bolt on at the cat exhaust like Honda's and Toyota's now since I keep a car till I pass on free to kids when they usually get 100K and I do not trust them with the wife going to WV. I presently have 3 with the above mentioned free service and been hard to resist. However, have caught the Toyota 3 times now in deception and probably will cut the free stuff off. Not worth the cost. Cost me now time and $100 for the silly Honda dealer. God only know what they have been putting in for oil. The last time I took the Toyota Tacoma 4x4 in, they came out with a slip showing my battery was at 80% CCA. I thanked them and said I would take care of that. I was in for free yearly state inspection and oil change. I have never ask for any extra. I go over my stuff before ever inspection. Never been caught with even a burnt bulb in all these years except a plate light on my Harley no less. However, I always watch my Toyota thru the bay door and a office guy walk under. I assumed he was just checking behind mechanic since he was reaching up under middle and appeared to be struggling with something. About 4 months later, 12:30AM when I got off work in a bad section in downtown Newport News at the shipyard, hit the key and it did nothing. Strong headlights. Pondered, again and not even a click. Pulled in down in N and hit it..nothing..back to park and it started. Couple days later, same thing. Got me to thinking maybe neutral switch. Had a 69 Pontiac that did it because console shift had sloppy linkage back up to switch which was still located on column like the column shift cars. About a week later, 12:30AM same but nothing helped. Son came and got me. Took me back next day and I jumped the neutral start out in the fuse box under the hood. Put it up on sons lift (I purchased for him when I broke his collarbone pulling on a tree he was cutting, too hard with my truck ) It is very hard to reach the neutral safety switch with out just unbolting it from the side. When it dropped down, the snap multi pin connector just fell off. Took one look and snapped it back on. It was a bear to push the release and get it back off. Oh well. I got the khakis on (ha) and took the 16 grandson (to help keep my cool) and went and me the head of the shop. He apologized and actually admitted that they routinely do that when they are having problems with other peoples cars. If that had been my wife, she could have been raped or worst... Oh well.. appreciate your candor.

ezone

Wait, what? Are you saying you witnessed this guy partially unplugging the NSS and later admitting it?

And his excuse was what?

RIPSAW

He apologized and actually admitted that they routinely do that and to other plugs when they are having problems with other peoples cars. (to check readings and such) The apology was for not getting it plugged back in. I was sure it was a set up. The plug is actually almost impossible to get to since it is on top of the switch coming down. It clearly states in service manual to unbolt switch and drop it down to check. (It's way up on side of transmission about 3/4" from the transmission hump in my 4x4 body.) What he did was reach up and probably with a screw driver, pry the snap and slip the plug up just past the catch. It took a while for it to slide on up and lose contact. And my driving is strictly street and no off road. It was pretty ingenious on his part. I am pretty laid back. Just reading some of your post, I get the idea that maybe it would not have been so pretty if you had been in my shoes......

ezone

Sure, but you had zero complaints and you were only there for the free oil change.



The apology was for getting caught.

I smell someone trying to generate revenue.

Free services aren't free.


No customer would ever open the hood and be able to see it.

F the service manual (sometimes), it cannot fix a car.

Besides, this is only relevant to the story because you had zero complaints and were not there to have any kind of diag done.


More like criminal. It's called "SABOTAGE"
You may be correct. I may have been sitting in the general managers office after figuring that out.

But then.... Often the people that generate the most revenue are the ones that are most valued by managers and bean counters.

RIPSAW

Well, it took a lot of poking and prodding. Everyone acts like they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Who knows if what they say is the truth. They say it's CAM2
Appears it's a CAM2 full synthetic Dexron VI ATF 298. I ask CAM2 what they thought.
They said...
Good Afternoon.
CAM2%u2019s Dexron VI Multi Vehicle Full Synthetic ATF is suitable for the Honda ATF %u2013 Z1 specification, which should be the specification for the 2005 Honda in question. So in this instance the dealer is correct in using the Dexron VI Full Synthetic from CAM2.
Thanks
J.D. Long
Midwest Regional Sales Manager
215.262.1672 Cell
219.476.3951 eFax

Never heard back from Anderol.
Ask Honda motors if Dexron VI is OK and they said nothing but DW-1. Said they would verify this and opened a case. Sure that will **** off the dealer. Guess my next car will be a Chevy

http://www.cam2.com/products/Automat...hetic-ATF.html

ezone

Dex III licensing has all expired, so those standards are not enforced now. Seems like anyone with red fluid can now call it Dexron III.

Dexron went to VI around the same time as or shortly before Honda went to DW1. They are both synthetic. I've wondered and asked if they are similar or the same but really never got good definite answers from anyone I trust and can't really get specs on Hondas fluid....so I will use what's definitely approved.

Have you priced Dex 6 vs DW1?

RIPSAW

Think the invoice was $2.00 or so less per quart on the service order then the dealer charges me for over the counter bottles of DW1. He probably saves a lot more then that in bulk. I got a case of DW1 coming in from College Honda tomorrow. I drove the Civic the other day. Fills fine driving easy and good sharp quick shifts if you step it up a notch. Honda Motors called and the only answer on the case I started was they only could recommend what was said in the manual. What the independent dealership did was beyond their control. So customer beware. No one is on your side from American Honda or the dealership. It's all about the $$$ . Very interesting that when the call came in from American Honda, they said they were recording it. Near the end (when I knew I was not getting anywhere) I told them I was also recording it. They told me I did not have their permission and until I stopped, there would be no further talk. Talking about covering their butt.