Political DiscussionA place to hold political debates and general discussion. Please remember to always respect the opinions of other members and above all else, be civil.
^^As for hospital care, sorry I don't think anyone should be denied such a thing. Now, education on the other hand, I'm sorry but I'll be damned if my taxes are going to pay for them to go to school. Screw that mess.
I can't say that you should kick someone out of the hospital if they are bleeding and broken, but hey, dozens of Hospitals HERE IN CALIFORNIA ALONE have closed down due to the costs of treating illegals, and not getting compensated for it.
i think that all these "protests" are doing exactly the opposite of what the groups are tyring to get across. Basically they are polarizing everyone on this issue and making each side very volitile toward the other. When the chips fall, the anti-illegal agenda I think would prevail if it came down to majority rule. (at least I hope so)
The problem here is NOT people wanting to come here for a better life.... the problem is people want to come here and not be american. They want to be Mexicans in america. (yea, just mexicans.... not much of a problem with other immigrants)
As far as the term "immigrants rights" all i have to say is:
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS SHOULD HAVE NO RIGHTS
I DO NOT care how long you have lived here, unless you went through the process to become a citizen or at LEAST are willing to do so right now in order to stay, then you should not get ANY benefit of living here. No medical, no welfare, no education, no DRIVERS LICENCE and most definately no land ownership rights (which they have). Our government has REALLY screwed this one up and they better fix it soon otherwise we will become a nation no more very quickly.
to make matters WORSE our own businesses are exploiting the cheap labor and selling out America. SHAME ON THEM. They should be fined $5,000.00 per offense no questions asked. The whole argument that the mexicans will do all the work americans wont do is CRAP. Try going to Taco Bell or a strawberry field etc... in a state like Idaho or Utah..... Guess what! Mostly white americans! Amazing! Been there, seen that..........
Last edited by sevenplaces : 04-12-2006 at 06:12 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
.....the problem is people want to come here and not be american. They want to be Mexicans in america. (yea, just mexicans.... not much of a problem with other immigrants)
im not sure wether i agree with you, or disagree with you. lol.
i think you're right on target, only you worded it wrong. there is nothing wrong with being "mexican in america." i mean...you can't really change who you are because of where you live. if people come here from Germany is it a bad thing that they want to be Germans in America? No..not really. Hell, i was raised on beans, rice and torillas. i enjoy spanish music (NOT reggeaton lol) and love the culture. My heritage is Mexican. my mom was born in Mexico (though she's been a citizen for like 15 - 18 years, never illegal though..always had papers.) Whenever i go to my grandmas house (on my dads side) the only thing i ever see on TV is spanish soap operas(she was born and raised here though.) theres nothing wrong with being "mexican in America." there IS something VERY wrong with not wanting to be American (or i guess you can say not wanting to be "americanized")
Being American isn't about where youre from because lets face it, everyone in this country is "from" somewhere else. like its so widely stated...america is the worlds melting pot. so that said, being "American" must be a way of life. it must but paying your taxes. it must be giving and receiving all the liberties that other countries do not have. it must be speaking English, following our laws etc.The big problem with this whole thing is that they're wanting America to be Mexico (not literally..but ya know...how it is there.) They live here and don't contribute as other Americans do.
ever heard of "the American dream"? i don't think its only for people who were born in America haha.
on a side note - when i was younger my parents always taught me and my sis when we were asked what our heritage was to say we are American with Mexican descent(sp??)
theres nothing wrong with being "mexican in America." there IS something VERY wrong with not wanting to be American (or i guess you can say not wanting to be "americanized")
thats what I was getting at.
Also, the whole "we all came from somewhere in the world at sometime" that is true of every nation. I think after however (subjective) many generations being somewhere people lose their sense of nationality. American is now a nationality, but it is odd that we as Americans always like to point our our "roots" no matter how much we are not like those roots any longer.
you edited so i am going to to. lol....um...the only people i see in Strawberry fields or in Taco Bell in my area are hmongs. don't know what that means, but i just thought i'd throw that in there.
do you think companies like Cingular or DishTV should be fined for outsourcing? they're exploiting cheap labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenplaces
thats what I was getting at.
Also, the whole "we all came from somewhere in the world at sometime" that is true of every nation. I think after however (subjective) many generations being somewhere people lose their sense of nationality. American is now a nationality, but it is odd that we as Americans always like to point our our "roots" no matter how much we are not like those roots any longer.
right, i figured what you were tryin to say...just the way you said it made it seem like only people born in America (Americans) should be here.
i think we point out our roots because there are soo many different roots from so many different places. and a lot of times our roots do show how we are. my friend has German roots, and opted to take German in HS...has German calendars in his house, drinks Heiniken (lol) etc. another 1 of my friends (actually several) are Thai. they haven't forgotten a bit of their culture. American is a nationality..but a nationality with so many different backgrounds - which really does make us all different. the only thing that is common of all Americans is our way of life (ideally)
Last edited by manthatguysfast : 04-12-2006 at 06:33 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
do you think companies like Cingular or DishTV should be fined for outsourcing? they're exploiting cheap labor.
I think you are talking about sourcing labor from other countries. If that is what you are referring to then no. there is nothing illegal about outsourcing, however I do feel that they have an obligation to NOT do that, but they can if they want. I am referring to the companies that knowingly hire illegals here in america because they can pay them $3 per hour. Even companies that hire illegals claiming that the people had "papers" but didint bother to actually check the legitimacy of them.
In general I am on the fence between the several ideas being talked about in the senate. Basically, I think that there should be a wall built along our mexican border before any leglisation regarding the illegal aliens here currently are dealt with. NO, mass deportation is not an option either. We have to figure out a structured way of dealing with the 20+ million illegals here now. Some type of set rules or requirements that are fair and have no "loopholes." That would be ideal but our gov't is incapable of creating something like that so it is really just a pipe dream........
In general I am on the fence between the several ideas being talked about in the senate. Basically, I think that there should be a wall built along our mexican border before any leglisation regarding the illegal aliens here currently are dealt with. NO, mass deportation is not an option either. We have to figure out a structured way of dealing with the 20+ million illegals here now. Some type of set rules or requirements that are fair and have no "loopholes." That would be ideal but our gov't is incapable of creating something like that so it is really just a pipe dream........
wow we completely agree on what reform should be! i said earlier in the thread, we need to nip the problem in the bud. 1st stop any more from coming over illegally. then find a way to deal with the ones that are here now, be it fines, english language classes then citizenship...WHATEVER..we gotta deal with em. can't just kick them out. (wether i agree with kicking them out or not, it could never realistically happen)
So, what you guys are saying is that people can come here but they are not free to keep the traditions they've known since birth? That if they come here they have to be "Americanized" and cannot continue to live their lives how they see fit but need to do so as other people in this country want them to do? That doesn't sound like the land of the free to me.
One of the good things about America is that you are free to be whomever you want to be. If you want to fly a German flag from your balcony or rear-view mirror then you are more than entitled to do so and nobody should tell you that what you are doing is illegal, immoral, or unethical in any way because it isn't. Those are my three criteria, BTW, so as long as your action is none of those three then have at it!
As far as building a wall, I think that is a bit costly and it would be seen as anti-Mexican. We do have about 13 Million illegals in this country but almost 15% of them are Asian (from Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, China, and other countries from that area). Most "illegal" aliens (other than Mexicans) actually arrived here legally and never left after their visas expired. This includes Guatemalan, Salvadorean, and others from Central and South America.
no no no no thats not what im saying at all!! like i said i am American but have mexican traditions and mexican up bringing.
i said they have to be "americanized" in that they have to follow our laws, pay taxes and be part of the american society. your culture is your culture....but you live in america, be proud of it, help it, love it. (lol)
by no means do i want people to give up their own traditions and practice American traditions. what are american traditions? macaroni and cheese? hot dogs? baseball? no thats not what im saying at all. Im saying that these people are waving their Mexican flags and fighting for the right to stay here....but should be waving American flags and fighting for the right to stay here based on the fact that they're part of this society and want to continue (or start) to be a helpful part.
wow we completely agree on what reform should be! i said earlier in the thread, we need to nip the problem in the bud. 1st stop any more from coming over illegally. then find a way to deal with the ones that are here now, be it fines, english language classes then citizenship...WHATEVER..we gotta deal with em. can't just kick them out. (wether i agree with kicking them out or not, it could never realistically happen)
i agree with you on the fact that we need to get the boarders secured and locked, but I dont agree with you on the fact that we need to help the illegals here get citizenship.
after we have made the boarders secure we need to work on finding the illegals. they are all around us but for some reason i keep hereing that these illegals have rights. WTF. they have no rights. they are felons. they need to be caputured and returned. there is no reason to make them citizens.
So, what you guys are saying is that people can come here but they are not free to keep the traditions they've known since birth? That if they come here they have to be "Americanized" and cannot continue to live their lives how they see fit but need to do so as other people in this country want them to do? That doesn't sound like the land of the free to me.
One of the good things about America is that you are free to be whomever you want to be. If you want to fly a German flag from your balcony or rear-view mirror then you are more than entitled to do so and nobody should tell you that what you are doing is illegal, immoral, or unethical in any way because it isn't. Those are my three criteria, BTW, so as long as your action is none of those three then have at it!
As far as building a wall, I think that is a bit costly and it would be seen as anti-Mexican. We do have about 13 Million illegals in this country but almost 15% of them are Asian (from Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, China, and other countries from that area). Most "illegal" aliens (other than Mexicans) actually arrived here legally and never left after their visas expired. This includes Guatemalan, Salvadorean, and others from Central and South America.
yeah, come here and keep your traditions but don't bleed your (and i don't mean you personally) traditions on everyone else!! i HATE that there is spanish on many american products in the grocery store...that is just ridiculous. part of being Americanized is learning our traditions too. while you live and work in America you NEED to speak our language in pubilc and live by our rules!! (i havea previous post that elaborates on this, read back if you want to.)
if you want to fly your nations flag on your own property, then do so. who cares? but most likely and i say that hypothetically, they are NOT illegals. also, putting your flag from your home country is not bad thing...they are not protesting anything!!
so what if building a well is anit-mexican? that is where the biggest influx of illegals come from! bulid it and you call it whatever you want!!
as for the asians being here illegally...i have not seen any of them waving their nation's flags? have you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiester96
i agree with you on the fact that we need to get the boarders secured and locked, but I dont agree with you on the fact that we need to help the illegals here get citizenship.
after we have made the boarders secure we need to work on finding the illegals. they are all around us but for some reason i keep hereing that these illegals have rights. WTF. they have no rights. they are felons. they need to be caputured and returned. there is no reason to make them citizens.
unfortunately, they do have some rights...for now!!! and they are not felons yet, yet!
illegals should not have any rights to our commodities, at all! they should not benefit from our health care or from our land or even our education programs...that's just straight up wrong, you just can't cut that any other way. how can they benefit from our educational programs and still can barely speak a lick of english???
I just want to say thanks for keeping up with this post and posting your ideas ...everyone has kept it clean and very intelligent!! Let's keep the thoughts coming....
yeah, come here and keep your traditions but don't bleed your (and i don't mean you personally) traditions on everyone else!! i HATE that there is spanish on many american products in the grocery store...that is just ridiculous. part of being Americanized is learning our traditions too. while you live and work in America you NEED to speak our language in pubilc and live by our rules!! (i havea previous post that elaborates on this, read back if you want to.)
if you want to fly your nations flag on your own property, then do so. who cares? but most likely and i say that hypothetically, they are NOT illegals. also, putting your flag from your home country is not bad thing...they are not protesting anything!!
so what if building a well is anit-mexican? that is where the biggest influx of illegals come from! bulid it and you call it whatever you want!!
as for the asians being here illegally...i have not seen any of them waving their nation's flags? have you?
Well, I guess I just take the widest definition of the word FREE because, to me, it means that people have the right to do as they please. If that means speak Spanish, Tagalog, Korean, Italian, or piglatin, then that's what it means. Just because someone moves here doesn't mean that they have to speak the language. It's to their disadvantage to not do so, but it's a personal choice they are free to make. Also, if they do learn English, they have the right to not speak it in public if they do not wish to.
Why does it bother you so much that products have Spanish on them? That is there for one reason and one reason only: to sell more of those products. Companies are not forced to print their labels in any language. They do so because they know that it helps them sell more of their crap and that is worth the cost of printing more words on a label. You should'nt be mad just because a label has a language on it that you don't like.
Have you ever been to Japan? Many of their signs are in Japanese and English (or attempted English). That doesn't bother the Japanese people at all. You know why? Because they are not insecure. It doesn't affect them to have signs on the street and government forms in the office written in two languages and it shouldn't bother anyone else who believes in freedom. This is not Communist Russia where the state dictates what you can and cannot do. Here in America people are free to speak the language they please and, as a business, free to try to sell to more people.
So, what's wrong with walking down the street with a Philipino flag? Don't tell me you haven't seen Pinoys walking down the street with flags on their shirts or flags on their cars. They're Asians. The reason you don't see other Asians do it is because, while they are patriotic, they are not as fanatic about where they came from as most Hispanics (including Philipinos because they were under Spanish control for almost 400 years). Americans are that way too, tho.
Americans have the bad habit of thinking they are better than anyone else. They go around thinking they deserve everything just because they're Americans. Have you ever traveled abroad? It's EASY to spot Americans because of the way they dress and their attitudes towards the locals and their customs. Americans go to other countries and expect those people to speak English; imagine the arrogance that implies! Americans have no respect for people in their own country so I don't know why I would expect them to respect people here in the U.S. That's all it boils down to, too, is just respect for other human beings around you.
Last edited by silverdevil : 04-13-2006 at 08:13 AM.
Americans have the bad habit of thinking they are better than anyone else. They go around thinking they deserve everything just because they're Americans. Have you ever traveled abroad? It's EASY to spot Americans because of the way they dress and their attitudes towards the locals and their customs. Americans go to other countries and expect those people to speak English; imagine the arrogance that implies! Americans have no respect for people in their own country so I don't know why I would expect them to respect people here in the U.S. That's all it boils down to, too, is just respect for other human beings around you.
You are saying AMERICANS don't respect the country they are in and the human beings around you? This is JUST the sort of hypocrisy of the communist doctrines.
We have illegal immigrants that come in here, many smuggling drugs. They illegally drive cars, they illegally use social services, sucking up money that was meant for AMERICANS. They overuse the hospital system and drive hospitals out of business. THEN they have the gall to raise the mexican flag and claim that *WE* are the invaders into *THEIR* land?
And you say that *WE* don't have respect when we go into other people's countries? Ours is the ultimate respect, we don't demand that they speak English, however many citizens will do so out of good business sense, catering to the richest people in the world (not arrogance, just the truth). We don't MOVE there (illegally) and demand that that country uses it's resources to teach our kids our language. We don't drive that nation into bankruptcy. We certainly don't form street gangs like MS-13 and go around selling drugs and killing people.
If mexicans or any other latinos want to immigrate here, I'm fine with it. DO IT LEGALLY. Yes, we need a guest worker program for the seasonal and migratory workers, so that we know who is coming in. Anyone smuggling drugs in should be stopped cold or dropped cold.
Illegal is Illegal. Is it too much to ask that you do it legally? NO.
It still gets me when I hear weak politicians catering to them. It still gets me when I hear some idiots saying "we are not criminals". Well heck, isn't that the definition of ILLEGAL?
You are saying AMERICANS don't respect the country they are in and the human beings around you? This is JUST the sort of hypocrisy of the communist doctrines.
We have illegal immigrants that come in here, many smuggling drugs. They illegally drive cars, they illegally use social services, sucking up money that was meant for AMERICANS. They overuse the hospital system and drive hospitals out of business. THEN they have the gall to raise the mexican flag and claim that *WE* are the invaders into *THEIR* land?
And you say that *WE* don't have respect when we go into other people's countries? Ours is the ultimate respect, we don't demand that they speak English, however many citizens will do so out of good business sense, catering to the richest people in the world (not arrogance, just the truth). We don't MOVE there (illegally) and demand that that country uses it's resources to teach our kids our language. We don't drive that nation into bankruptcy. We certainly don't form street gangs like MS-13 and go around selling drugs and killing people.
If mexicans or any other latinos want to immigrate here, I'm fine with it. DO IT LEGALLY. Yes, we need a guest worker program for the seasonal and migratory workers, so that we know who is coming in. Anyone smuggling drugs in should be stopped cold or dropped cold.
Illegal is Illegal. Is it too much to ask that you do it legally? NO.
It still gets me when I hear weak politicians catering to them. It still gets me when I hear some idiots saying "we are not criminals". Well heck, isn't that the definition of ILLEGAL?
And you say that
I'm with you on the legal part. I don't like anything illegal. There are laws for a reason and you don't break them just because they're not convenient for you. I have no problem with people lobbying for change in a law but I do have a problem with people breaking it. As far as that goes, I agree with you that there should be no illegal immigrants and that, once here, they should not have the same rights as regular citizens. I have no problem with that argument.
My problem is that people that are here legally, be it via visa, green card, or born here, are being asked not to speak their language of choice, not to ask for schools to teach in their language, not to fly the flag of their herritage, and other such things. If a Mexican comes here legally and requests that the state of California add Spanish as a curriculum, then I have absolutely no problem with that. They pay their taxes just like everyone else and have a right to petition the government to cater to their needs/wants just like everyone else does. This is NOT a Communist idea. I don't know why you keep calling me a Communist when, clearly, I'm more of a libertarian than anything else. Those are two things that do not go together.
And, yes, I'm saying that Americans do not respect the countries they go to. I've been to 7 countries on official military orders and have traveled to each location with other fellow soldiers and government-contracted civilians. I do not recall one of those trips where most of the people I traveled with or that I worked with once there (I'm talking of only the Americans now) had no respect for the local custums and thought that, just because they were American, they deserved better treatment than and from the locals.
Ask anyone living near a military installation in Germany, Spain, France, Saudi Arabia, Britain, Italy, or Turkey (those are the places I've visited) what they think of the military presence and you will get the same response: "we like that it helps our economy but we have too many problems with the Americans not respecting our customs." One good example of this was when I was in Saudi Arabia. Women REFUSED to wear an abaya (traditional women head gear) and DEMANDED to be allowed to drive. Well, in Saudi Arabia, it is LAW that women are forbiden from driving and customary to wear the abaya. Those are local laws and customs that Americans do not want to respect. Another is that women are not allowed to touch men (or the other way around) but our guys never made an effort to not touch women in public places (for example, one guy tapped a woman on the shoulder in the marketplace). Also, when I was in Spain, it is customary to close down a store from 12pm - 4pm yet Americans got mad if they were kicked out of the mall because it was closing down and, in some cases, demanded to be allowed to remain.
Listen, I'm not saying EVERY American is disrespectful, but many are. I've seen it in numerous occasions and it's really irritating to the locals. I've sat in bars chatting with locals and that's the first thing they always complain about. I did not go to the "American" places, or those that catered to them, and always tried to absorb as much of the local culture as I could. It's a different mentality. I don't ask that Americans do this, simply that they respect the local laws and customs and don't think that they are better than anyone else just because they are Americans.
Last edited by silverdevil : 04-13-2006 at 12:25 PM.
