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Seriously I cant think of any. I know why we must stay. But why are we there? This is a blatant Bush hating thread but zapthycat keeps saying hating Bush is a partisan thing. Sorry to break it to you I live in a predominantly republican family that hates W. I am the stereotypical lock step republican and even I hate him. So please give me a way that hating an evil man is partisan.
For your right to start this thread... You can be a Bush-hater all you want but please don't forget those before you and present who have died in the many conflicts of OUR country. And Iraq is no different no matter if you think it was right/wrong for us to be there. Thank GOD there are those who voluntarily join our Armed Forces and go to War so people like you can sit back at home and voice your opinion. I served my Country and would be glad to again to be involved in the history that is enfolding in Iraq/Afghanistan. Just my .02...
i hate bush...but
kicking sadam out was the right thing to do. we had a flawed reason for going in and bush has not admitted to being wrong...he kinda diverted attention away from WMD.
i also think that the iraqi people should have been more involved in freeing iraq. from an outsider point of view it looks like the US is toppling an established government and then building its own puppet gov.
also the whole volunteering thing may be a lil out of context. some of those people out there are only there because they needed money to get into college. i'm not criticizing them, they are all brave men and women but they may not have intended to goto war in the beginning. my sister joined because she needed money for college, the recruiter said she will be rotated around the US bases...he lied...she's in the Middle East now escorting convoys. hell i'm thankful they're there so i don't have to fight.
unfortunately we may have to do the same w/ Iran. They've become very arrogant and dangerous.
Good job I am a fag. Now give me a reason why we should be in Iraq that worked. because to me it really seems like we stabbed a tree to stop the dog's barking. No what we are doing over there doesn't equal even the Vietnam standards. at least in Vietnam there really were communists coming to take over. Yes I respect the soldiers over there I think there are side effects of the war that are positive but not worth a war. We can always make the argument the best thing possible is being beat down by America. Look at Germany and Japan both were in the G8 only 50 years after being burnt to the ground. This isn't even about the loss of life. hell 40k people dead isn't even that much Japan lost 2.5mil and killed up to 15mil people in ww2 that's 202 days of killing one person every second The Iraq war wouldn't last half a day at that pace. However when its your brother mother or son that second means a lot. What I want to know is how those of you who call me a liberal can justify our entire gov't allowing us to go in to a pre-emptive war. Then not wanting any kind of hearings to prevent this from ever happening again.
Last edited by nick95673 : 01-06-2006 at 10:08 AM.
Regardless of the initial excuses to go into Iraq, I can't say that taking Saddam out of power was bad.
A lot you don't realize just how bad of a guy this guy was. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot... these are the kinds of people Saddam could have hung with. It's unfortunate that he was in power for so long, and killed so many of his own people.
You apparently have never heard the saying "so long as someone is oppressed, no one is free". Iraqi people were brutally oppressed, slaughtered and dumped into mass graves. Kurds had acid dropped on them. Saddam used chemical weapons against his own people. And yes, those are Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Have you ever seen the movie "Tears of the Sun"? Came out a few years ago. Not very popular or widely publicized... it was about a group of Special Forces sent into Nigeria to rescue some Americans after Nigeria just collapsed upon itself. It graphicly showed that conditions that "the oppressed" have to live with. One man is doused in gasoline and set on fire, a woman is being raped, another woman had her breasts cut off so that she couldn't nurse her child.... and the list goes on. Bad things happen because good people turn the other way.
I have a picture of a Kuwaiti man kissing an american flag, taken after the US liberated Kuwait. I suppose you were against that as well, right? After all, it's not our business. It's not out business about the genocide in Sudan either. Or the atrocities in Rwanda and Uganda. Those places didn't get as much press as the richer arabic areas, but they were still people that were being oppressed. And the US is the only nation with the might to stop it. And then we have half our populace that are so SELFISH that they say "it's not our war, stay out of it", or "this was all about oil!". Please.
It's hard for many to imagine, but millions of Iraqis are grateful to the US. Most of Iraq is quiet and peaceful... and free. Countless lives have been SAVED.
No, it's not perfect, but you have the luxury of critisizing from your warm cozy bedrooms, while others do the hard work.
This may sound cold, but since when are we responsible for the welfare of people from other countries? It is not possible to save everyone, everywhere, especially people from other countries, when we have many that suffer right here in our own backyards.
Not to mention real issues here, that can't get focused on because of a war overseas that is taking our tax dollars and basically giving it to the Iraqi people for a new government and to rebuild their lives. I highly doubt we'll be able to recoup the money lost on this war because Iraq most likely won't pay us back, so the national debt continues to grow. What we should have spent/spend that money on is improving the welfare of our own citizens, or actually funding the president's No Child Left Behind Act, improving the environment, funding alternative fuel research so we don't have to depend on Middle Eastern oil. There are many more problems here that are more important to Americans than a war to liberate people from another country.
Saddam might have been some horrible dictator (I wouldn't go as far as Hitler or Stalin) but that really isn't our problem. When we were ruled by the British we brought ourselves to arms and revolted. We had some help from the French but we took the initiative. I haven't really seen Iraqis trying to revolt against Saddam. People say, "But people who revolt in Iraq are killed by Saddam." So? I guess that means they didn't try hard enough or enough people weren't behind your cause. It's hard to run a country if you kill everyone. Who's gonna work, and do the other day to day tasks for the country? If everyone really hated Saddam they would have found a way to topple him themselves. He can't kill everybody.
This really just goes back and forth all day. You can say "put yourself in their shoes" but when it comes down to it, we're not, so we can't relate. I can imagine how they must feel though, but they have to do something about it, they have to want to change. We can't go in and just say ok we're going to topple your government because we think you have WMDs, oh, and while we're here, we'll take care of Saddam because he is oppressing you and your standard of living is low. It doesn't work that way, the people have to really want it and work for it or it means nothing in the long run.
To finish up, when you initiate a war it's because you think you'll come out on top in the end, I don't see that happening in Iraq. We don't get anything, Iraq gets everything, and we lose some credibility across the globe for starting a useless war.
I will give everyone some +rep (whenever I can get to everyone, and hopefully it does something, I'm low on rep though) because I like political discussions and hearing everyone's opinion. It's good to be informed.
"Because Knowledge is Power."
Regardless of the initial excuses to go into Iraq, I can't say that taking Saddam out of power was bad.
A lot you don't realize just how bad of a guy this guy was. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot... these are the kinds of people Saddam could have hung with. It's unfortunate that he was in power for so long, and killed so many of his own people..
Why didn't we invade North Korea? Or any of the many Latin American countries that slaughter priests for speaking of freedom or peace? Why don't we stop training the Latin American nations how to kill priests at the School of The Americas outside of Atlanta?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
You apparently have never heard the saying "so long as someone is oppressed, no one is free". Iraqi people were brutally oppressed, slaughtered and dumped into mass graves. Kurds had acid dropped on them. Saddam used chemical weapons against his own people. And yes, those are Weapons of Mass Destruction. ..
Yes he did do these things. In fact he did them back in the 80's before Gulf War 1. Why didn't we do it then? In fact before we went in this time we sent 30 Americans back to their family in Iraq that had known connections to the wmd program. All 30 came home and told out intelligence agencies that the wmd programs had been abandoned shortly after 1991. When we beat them in to the sand the first time they got the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
Have you ever seen the movie "Tears of the Sun"? Came out a few years ago. Not very popular or widely publicized... it was about a group of Special Forces sent into Nigeria to rescue some Americans after Nigeria just collapsed upon itself. It graphicly showed that conditions that "the oppressed" have to live with. One man is doused in gasoline and set on fire, a woman is being raped, another woman had her breasts cut off so that she couldn't nurse her child.... and the list goes on. Bad things happen because good people turn the other way. ..
Yes I did. It was horrible. I also have a friend who was involved in the Rwandan Genocide. When she was 5 years old she had to hide amongst the dead bodies of her family in the village well. Not cool at all. Why didn't we go in there? Why aren't we going in guns blazing in to the Sudan? Why when we do is it only for our people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
I have a picture of a Kuwaiti man kissing an american flag, taken after the US liberated Kuwait. I suppose you were against that as well, right? After all, it's not our business. It's not out business about the genocide in Sudan either. Or the atrocities in Rwanda and Uganda. Those places didn't get as much press as the richer arabic areas, but they were still people that were being oppressed. And the US is the only nation with the might to stop it. And then we have half our populace that are so SELFISH that they say "it's not our war, stay out of it", or "this was all about oil!". Please. ..
I don't think it was about oil. At all!!! I wish it was. I would accept that because it would help with national security. I wish it was about terrorism but it wasn't. I wish it was about stopping torture but we have killed over 100 "enemy combatants" during interrogation. In fact we let most of those Abu grade guys out because they were innocent. I think this was about our "smart and evil" or "dumb" president finishing it up for his daddy. Remember Collin Powell? Everyone respected him. In fact he was actually in the military. He left after 1 term. I wonder why. Oh I know Powell is a guy who likes to "cut and run." Luckily club deferment is still there to run our military. Its alright though they had better things to do during that time. Bush lied why aren't we at least doing a congressional investigation in to pre-emptive wars? Once you mention Hitler you lost the argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
It's hard for many to imagine, but millions of Iraqis are grateful to the US. Most of Iraq is quiet and peaceful... and free. Countless lives have been SAVED. ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
No, it's not perfect, but you have the luxury of critisizing from your warm cozy bedrooms, while others do the hard work.
Worst argument ever. I wasnt there so my p.o.v. is invalid. You wernt there and ar advocating others being there. I know more marines and sailors that get drunk and complain or cry about Iraq and want to go back to help their friends than are glad they helped a society. Of course right wing media is only going to find pro war soldiers.
no one knows exactly what is being done in Irarq unless you are/were there. The media portrays a horrible version of what is going on. That is why many of the soldiers there tell ther familiy not to watch the news. The news channels are mainly democrat and try and make Bush look as bad as he possibly can in every situation. I'm not saying I love Bush, but taking Sadam out was very good. Yes we needed to do it because he could have planned some kind of world domination as Hitler did. It is possible. Whether you want to admit it or not, most of the people complaining about it on this site, would never even think about joining the military. If you dont like what Americas doing, then leave. 1,000's of people from other countrys come to America every year. They complain every day about how America does not need to be in my country, bla bla bla. Then why did you come here. Go back home. I am going into the marines this summer and would be proud to serve my country. Until you have enough courage to put yourself in a situation like that, you shouldn't talk about the people doing it. Do you think it makes them feel good?
reasons to go to iraq for BUSH
1. war = money
2. war = long speeches about freedom...
reasons for soldiers
1. they have to
2. they have to
reasons for anyone else
1. they are suicidal
2. really really really stupid
Yes we needed to do it because he could have planned some kind of world domination as Hitler did. It is possible.
Have you read the 9/11 commissions report? Or 2 weeks ago when bush said the intelligence was wrong what do you think he meant? Invading Iraq because "he could have" is the equivalent of invading canada in hindsight. Really he had nothing. Not even a tie to terrorist. The closest thing they have that ties him to anything outside of his nation has no evidence. So theres an accusation he paid suicide bombers family members in israel. Wow I sure am glad we went to war to stop Israels problem. We still are yet to find any evidence of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiester96
Whether you want to admit it or not, most of the people complaining about it on this site, would never even think about joining the military.
I was signed up. I dislocated my knee and they told me to take a hike. All of my family coming back is complaining. All of my friends coming back wish they had never gone. Once again because Rush tells you soldiers are telling their familys to not watch the news doesnt make it true. Yes theres a lot of miss information. But i am not talking about that I am talking about why leave america and head to Iraq in the first place for a pre-emptive war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiester96
If you dont like what Americas doing, then leave.
In 3 years hopefully he will be gone. I love america. Its bush we hate. I would love for a normal person to be in the white house. Like I said I am a republican I am not some abortion wanting tree hugging hippy. However I dont like bush using "signing notes." When the president signs a law he can put a note in the margin that clears the law up until the supreme court gets a chance to look at it. In the new anti-torture law Bush wrote a note saying he reserves the right to ignore (most the time when you ignore a law its called braking the law) the torture ban as the president. So we passed a no torture law unless the president says its ok. America is checks and balances. That by passes the whole process. THATS NOT AMERICA
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiester96
I am going into the marines this summer and would be proud to serve my country. Until you have enough courage to put yourself in a situation like that, you shouldn't talk about the people doing it. Do you think it makes them feel good?
No I dont. I hope it makes you feel like you want to do some research on your soon to be commander and chief. And maybe you will do some homework on the matter. We dont blindly hate Bush. Bush is yet to show good leadership skills. I hope you back out. Not out of fear but out of knowledge that your leader isnt normal. You are not defending america from anything in Iraq. You are only building the Bush legacy.
This may sound cold, but since when are we responsible for the welfare of people from other countries? It is not possible to save everyone, everywhere, especially people from other countries, when we have many that suffer right here in our own backyards.
Not to mention real issues here, that can't get focused on because of a war overseas that is taking our tax dollars and basically giving it to the Iraqi people for a new government and to rebuild their lives. I highly doubt we'll be able to recoup the money lost on this war because Iraq most likely won't pay us back, so the national debt continues to grow. What we should have spent/spend that money on is improving the welfare of our own citizens, or actually funding the president's No Child Left Behind Act, improving the environment, funding alternative fuel research so we don't have to depend on Middle Eastern oil. There are many more problems here that are more important to Americans than a war to liberate people from another country.
Saddam might have been some horrible dictator (I wouldn't go as far as Hitler or Stalin) but that really isn't our problem. When we were ruled by the British we brought ourselves to arms and revolted. We had some help from the French but we took the initiative. I haven't really seen Iraqis trying to revolt against Saddam. People say, "But people who revolt in Iraq are killed by Saddam." So? I guess that means they didn't try hard enough or enough people weren't behind your cause. It's hard to run a country if you kill everyone. Who's gonna work, and do the other day to day tasks for the country? If everyone really hated Saddam they would have found a way to topple him themselves. He can't kill everybody.
This is by far one of the most intelligent and real opinions I have read. I cant really agree with it, but I respect you for your frankness. I also appreciate that you aren't turning this into a "Bush lied, impeach him" arguement and you are actually discussing the issues. There are a lot of extreme left wing people in the US that hate Bush and allow that hate to override anything positive he does, like phone-tapping Bin Laden's speed dial list.
I don't think it's inappropriate to put Hussain in the same camp as Hitler and Stalin. Why not? Hussain had many uprisings against him to try to take him out of power, however he had learned from dictators in the past and knew how to keep a hold of power and defeat some of these insurgencies. Hussain had his revolts and uprisings, Hitler had his Schwarz-Kappel to deal with. But both needed help from outside in order to overcome the dictator. Heck, even AMERICA needed help to overcome the British... we couldn't have done it without French and Spanish help (both were at war with Britain at the time). Particularly France.
I can scarcely believe that the war is going as bad as some people say. The rates of re-enlistment are sky-high, and soldiers cannot wait to get back there... they are enthusiastic about what they are doing. That flies in the face of your "friends that hated it". 2/3rds of Iraq is quiet and there is major reconstruction going on, reform... the people are thankful to the US Soldiers for being there. Of course this would result in encouraged soldiers that are gladly re-enlisting.
Regardless of whether you are republican or democrat, it's this radical left-wing agenda of "impeach bush!" that has hijacked the democrat party and has left millions of americans without a legitimate political party. People want to hear about real issues and don't have time for bush-hating. He'll be gone in a few years, and the issues that many people are standing on will be gone. I'm getting sick of hearing and reading stupid people that just hate bush, instead of them wanting to actually do something constructive.
Why did we go in to iraq pre-emptively? I hate Bush for reasons. I liked the first one for good reasons. I am not blindly throwing out useless info. I hate him for thinking its ok to kick a dictator out for torture. Then turn around and capture men and stick glow sticks up their butts with no proof that they have done anything. Then have hundreds die while we interrogate them. Then when our congressional branch trys to check the powers the president uses "signing notes" to say it doesnt apply to him. Who else would a no torture law apply to? They didnt pass this law for parents trying to figure out who put the milk back with nothing in the carton. That was written to keep the president from torturing "enemy combatants" Remember after we did all that to the guys at abu grade we let them go because we found out they were innocent.
I am getting tired of reading things from ignorant cats who have no facts just a blind hope writing about how we shouldnt question what bush is doing.
Sorry I omitted that part. Yes 90% of the guys who complained about being there do want to go back. Not because they love Iraq. Because their "family" is still there. They don't want to leave their boys. Those guys have saved each other lives and seen some crazy stuff together. Them reenlisting doesn't mean they love the mission. It means they love their comrades.
Last edited by nick95673 : 01-07-2006 at 05:41 PM.
) because I like political discussions and hearing everyone's opinion. It's good to be informed. 
