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What does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?
If you are trying to point out that it's all a bunch of stupid partisan politics, I think we already knew that, but then again, you're doing the same exact thing by introducing more partisian and biased material.
I really don't give a flip about Reps or Dems, I think they all need to stop supporting their political party and instead support this nation. Nobody is doing that, especially through their moronic partisian politics. This is exactly what is wrong with this nation.
I dont know if I suck at making a point. Every response you make to my posts are about 1'' off of the point I was trying to make. Thats exactly why I posted that list. Just to make the point that everyone is just for their party not the nation. And to make fun of people for not wanting to go to war is not the right thing to do when just 7 years ago Sean Hannity was on the sindy sheehan team.
I realize not every person who is for this war is a Rush or Hannity fan but every war fan I have found is a Bush fan. I just dont understand why people are still trying to justify this war. It has already hit the 1.7 billion dollar mark. We were told it would only cost 1.7 billion. So the only logical reason for supporting this war is that you dont want to admit that the republican primaries didnt work too well this time.
However to say we went in to Iraq for national security is retarded. Hmmmmmmm invade a muslim nation and kill over 30k innocent people. Or stop a genocide against muslims. Which one do you think will atleast make muslims think twice about joining a terrorist group?
THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT A DOCUMENT THE PRESIDENT FOLLOW SOME TIMES
I dont know if I suck at making a point. Every response you make to my posts are about 1'' off of the point I was trying to make. Thats exactly why I posted that list. Just to make the point that everyone is just for their party not the nation. And to make fun of people for not wanting to go to war is not the right thing to do when just 7 years ago Sean Hannity was on the sindy sheehan team.
I realize not every person who is for this war is a Rush or Hannity fan but every war fan I have found is a Bush fan. I just dont understand why people are still trying to justify this war. It has already hit the 1.7 billion dollar mark. We were told it would only cost 1.7 billion. So the only logical reason for supporting this war is that you dont want to admit that the republican primaries didnt work too well this time.
However to say we went in to Iraq for national security is retarded. Hmmmmmmm invade a muslim nation and kill over 30k innocent people. Or stop a genocide against muslims. Which one do you think will atleast make muslims think twice about joining a terrorist group?
THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT A DOCUMENT THE PRESIDENT FOLLOW SOME TIMES
The funny thing is that you (and every other bush hater) seem to be against the war merely because you hate Bush, and that's completely wrong.
Can't you look at the great things that have been accomplished? A sadistic tyranical dictator who has mass murdered thousands of people has been deposed. The left complains that no WMD's were found. The president uses emergency justification in order to stop terrorist attacks by tapping less than 600 people who are unquestionably terrorists, and the left whines that terrorists have rights too and they shouldn't be wiretapped immediately, but a case should be brought against them which would take months to get before they are tapped. Bush lowered taxes, and the left whines about cutting programs that are needed.
Yes, only three issues that I mentioned, but they are all good issues, IMHO. I don't hate Bush because of good things he has done, and I don't hate him for bad things he has done. I can like what he does without liking him, and I can dislike things he does, without disliking him.
Why can't everyone else be like that, instead of toeing their party line?
Truely, we have become a nation of veal-calves and sheeple. Everyone follows their pied piper blindly, and no progress will ever be made so long as a loud 40% of people hate bush beyond all hatred, and 30% of people love him beyond all love. It's stupid
look, i know that most of us if not ALL of us are against the current iraq conflict. like i said, its gonna be the next vietnam in the history books. no reason.
ZAP- yes it was good that bush took down saddam and his forces. yes.
but the reason was wrong. WMDs? yea right. saddam was a scapegoat. if bush really wanted to he could have blown afganistan to hell. that is where those people were from who flew the planes into the twin towers came from.
i don't hate the president. i hate the things he does. i think hes a moron. but that don't mean i hate him. i just want him out of office. his policies are just wrong.
put it this way, if he said "look, i know sep 11 happened. i fear that saddam will do some shit to us, im gonna take him down."
i would have said wow. good for him. but thats not what happened. the POTUS came after him cause he blamed sep 11 on saddam
ZAP- yes it was good that bush took down saddam and his forces. yes.
but the reason was wrong. WMDs? yea right. saddam was a scapegoat. if bush really wanted to he could have blown afganistan to hell. that is where those people were from who flew the planes into the twin towers came from.
there is no proof of anything good in Iraq yet. That wont happen until 20-50 years from now. For all we know we could be stuck there forever. We could end up paying 2 trillion for this war. I heard it said this morning. This war is a lot like the phillipines. We go to war againt Spain(terrorism) so we decide to take the phillipines(Iraq) for no good reason. Yet still after a century of control there are Muslim terrorists in the phillipines. So once again yes I hate Bush but I am not a democrat I am someone who looks at problems(bush) and makes a decision based on what is presented to me.
It just so happens the democrats have #s and history on their side. The Bush supporters and war supporters have name calling. I dont know but I am going with the side that has facts. McCain in 08. Maybe I hate bush for push polling in 00. when he called voters in the primaries and asked "would you still vote for mccain if you found out he had an illegite black child you didnt know about?" then as a defense the Bush people said "well we didnt say he had one we said would you still vote for him if he did". Maybe I hate him for using Signing notes. Maybe I hate him for a ton of reasons but I could hold it down and not care until he started authorizing sodomy(sticking glow sticks in someones butt) on what he calls "enemy combatants" then convicts privates not higher ups on half ass charges that dont come close to what they should be charged with. Maybe I hate him for kicking pentagon lawyers out of meetings when they told him torture is not effective.
Last edited by nick95673 : 01-11-2006 at 03:08 PM.
tell me what the good is. Yeah Iran is now able to start up enrichment less fearfull of us as ever. North Korea can do what ever they want knowing we are bogged down. Terrorist see that for the price of 20 of them they can drag us in to a war with someone they hated too. And we will waste a lot of our tax dollars on it.
We built schools in Iraq. We stopped torture and opened up voting. awesome. Next stop sudan. I wish we had points to donate still because I would give Zap all my points if we stay out of sudan after chad gets sucked in to it. In Chad there are american oil companies. Then we will need to wonder why bush didnt push congress to give the u.n. the money Condy Rice asked for in 2005. Not saying Iraq is all about oil. I think its all about the "Bush Legacy" imho. However i am saying it had nothing to do with human rights. If we wont even give the UN money to help Sudan when our own sec of state says we need to its evident we are not so high and mighty. But lets see how much we care about genocide when it gets close to driving up the price of a gallon of gas.
Last edited by nick95673 : 01-11-2006 at 03:21 PM.
The funny thing is that you (and every other bush hater) seem to be against the war merely because you hate Bush, and that's completely wrong.
I dislike the war because 1. I've seen its effects firsthand; and, 2. because, when you think about it, countries should treat countries like people should treat people (i.e. you should NEVER hit someone unless they hit you first. In that manner, nobody EVER throws the first punch and there is no war other than civil wars).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
Can't you look at the great things that have been accomplished? A sadistic tyranical dictator who has mass murdered thousands of people has been deposed. The left complains that no WMD's were found. The president uses emergency justification in order to stop terrorist attacks by tapping less than 600 people who are unquestionably terrorists, and the left whines that terrorists have rights too and they shouldn't be wiretapped immediately, but a case should be brought against them which would take months to get before they are tapped. Bush lowered taxes, and the left whines about cutting programs that are needed.
Let me take it one by one:
Saddam being removed: who are we to determine whom should rule what country? That is exclusively the right of the citizens of that country. Removing Saddam from power is ethically wrong for any democratic country. To impose democracy is despotic by definition.
Wire taps: there is a legal way of obtaining them that only takes a few hours. Judges usually approve wiretaps even retroactively up to 72 hours. However, Bush is tapping American citizens INSIDE the US without a warrant. FISA authorizes the tapping of Americans OUTSIDE the country for security purposes, not inside. I suggest you read it.
Taxes: how can you pay for a war by lowering the money you collect? It's counter intuitive (i.e. stupid). To pay for the war we need to raise taxes (actually, government revenue). Yes, we can do that by cutting programs but then our way of life suffers. Isn't that why we're at war, to sustain our way of life?
Maybe I hate him for kicking pentagon lawyers out of meetings when they told him torture is not effective.
Maybe it's just me, but I think all lawyers are idiots, and they deserve to be kicked out of meetings, out of the pentegon, out of congress, out of the country. There should be no such thing as a lawsuit practically, except for something incredibly gross, evil, and foul. Lawyers have mucked up this nation so bad, now everyone wants to sue someone to get money that is not theirs and that they did not deserve.
Just my opinion, a little off on a tangent, but oh well. I can't say I have much more to add about to this thread anyways
If you lower taxes, you force government to be more resourceful with the money that it already has. You work for the government, surely you know something about the incredibly waste of money you must see everyday?
-soldiers get free stuff, anything and everything non-lethal you can grab, practically.
-pork barrel spending. research on how pigeon droppings effect statues, crap like that. give me a break.
-stupid programs like the one that insures people who regular insurance companies won't insure, like the people that intentionally build their homes in floodzones. every year the floods come along, and they get a check cut to them for six figures. then more people build there.
-departments hire more and more people so that their budget is used up, that way they get more funding for next year, even though no one has any work to do.
these are just examples. It's a horrendous waste. Beaurocrats wasting money needlessly.
I understand that you are likely a hardcore socialist or communist, and that stronger government that takes care of everyone is a good thing in your eyes, however I see stronger government as just another way to trample the rights of the people. more taxes as well. if we lower taxes, then maybe the government will stop funding the abortions of crack whores and make them fund them themselves?
I don't consider a rosary and a cross in a jar of urine to be "art", either, and I don't see any need to fund such projects with my tax dollars.
Just my opinions here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdevil
I dislike the war because 1. I've seen its effects firsthand; and, 2. because, when you think about it, countries should treat countries like people should treat people (i.e. you should NEVER hit someone unless they hit you first. In that manner, nobody EVER throws the first punch and there is no war other than civil wars).
Let me take it one by one:
Saddam being removed: who are we to determine whom should rule what country? That is exclusively the right of the citizens of that country. Removing Saddam from power is ethically wrong for any democratic country. To impose democracy is despotic by definition.
Wire taps: there is a legal way of obtaining them that only takes a few hours. Judges usually approve wiretaps even retroactively up to 72 hours. However, Bush is tapping American citizens INSIDE the US without a warrant. FISA authorizes the tapping of Americans OUTSIDE the country for security purposes, not inside. I suggest you read it.
Taxes: how can you pay for a war by lowering the money you collect? It's counter intuitive (i.e. stupid). To pay for the war we need to raise taxes (actually, government revenue). Yes, we can do that by cutting programs but then our way of life suffers. Isn't that why we're at war, to sustain our way of life?
If you lower taxes, you force government to be more resourceful with the money that it already has. You work for the government, surely you know something about the incredibly waste of money you must see everyday?
-soldiers get free stuff, anything and everything non-lethal you can grab, practically.
-pork barrel spending. research on how pigeon droppings effect statues, crap like that. give me a break.
-stupid programs like the one that insures people who regular insurance companies won't insure, like the people that intentionally build their homes in floodzones. every year the floods come along, and they get a check cut to them for six figures. then more people build there.
-departments hire more and more people so that their budget is used up, that way they get more funding for next year, even though no one has any work to do.
I just want to say that we soldiers don't get "free stuff, anything and everything non-lethal you can grab." We get clothing geared for the environments we will work in (parkas, wool socks, gloves). Regular uniforms are paid for by us (we get some money back, but not all). Did you know that *most* enlisted soldiers with a rank under E-5 live under the poverty line? This is especially true if they have a family.
Most other things I agree with you but you have to think the logic through. We might fund how pigeon crap affects the statues so that we can save money in the long run by requiring them to be built out of a material not corroded by said crap. That's just an example, tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
I understand that you are likely a hardcore socialist or communist, and that stronger government that takes care of everyone is a good thing in your eyes, however I see stronger government as just another way to trample the rights of the people. more taxes as well. if we lower taxes, then maybe the government will stop funding the abortions of crack whores and make them fund them themselves?
I don't consider a rosary and a cross in a jar of urine to be "art", either, and I don't see any need to fund such projects with my tax dollars.
Just my opinions here.
Actually, I'm not a hardcore socialist or communist. I'm a strict capitalist and democrat. We don't live in either society. What does this mean?
What's another word for Capitalism? Free market, right? Do we live in a free market? NOPE! Free markets are self-regulating without intervention from government. NAFTA wouldn't be needed because we'd have no tariffs to begin with. Also, people could unionize and strike and companies could replace them. It's a much better system than the pseudo-capitalism we have now.
I say I'm a democrat because I believe we should all have a say in our country. As it stands, we live in a democratic republic. In a true democracy, as was Athens in the 5th century B.C., every citizen could gather in assembly and have one vote on the law/agenda being discussed. One man one vote doesn't mean one vote for a representative, it means one true vote.
Anywho, I guess that's an ideal we'll never live up to.
Oh, and on the rosary and cross in urine thing, I don't care. If the government is going to fund art, it is up to the artist to decide what he considers art. I don't want the money going there to begin with, but once it does, the artist has free reign. You can't tell someone what to do and then call it art.
Last edited by silverdevil : 01-11-2006 at 05:31 PM.
i gotta agree with silverdevil. iraq won't have a free capitilistic market. it will be government controlled. i would not be suprised if they went communist after the US left.
