Political DiscussionA place to hold political debates and general discussion. Please remember to always respect the opinions of other members and above all else, be civil.
Bush recently admitted that he has ordered the NSA to spy, not only on people living in America (something that was not unprecedented), but to spy on American citizens. The spying on American citizens by intelligence agencies (CIA, NSA) had been, up until the PATRIOT ACT, unprecedented. The reason is because the collections methods used are indiscriminate and will gather data on people who are not under investigation, which is unconstitutional.
How do you guys feel about this? Do you think it's necessary to give up our constitutional rights and liberties just to listen in on a potential terrorist? What is the point of having those liberties given to us only to have them taken away?
I'll leave you with a quote from Thomas Jefferson: "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Eh, let em spy on me, it's not like I'm doing anything illegal. I just act like a tard, hell, they would probably feel sorry for me and give me a tax break or something.
They aren't spying on ME. They're spying on the terrorists.
If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't have a problem with this.
Then again, if they just let everyone be free like in the Bill of Rights, everyone would own a gun and carry a gun, everywhere, and terrorists wouldn't have a chance to get anything off the ground, because they'd get wiped out completely.
if im on a cell phone and say the word "bomb" or anything else, my line automatically gets tapped and recorded. then i get put through the "terrorist system" so i would be more likely to be "a terrorist" cause i have the middle eastern look. except they have no clue that im a jew. anyone see the fault in this?
it makes me want to get on my cell phone and be like " bomb. o btw our president is an asshat who is breaking constitutional LAWs and RIGHTS of all of the american people. and whats worse, is that NO ONE is doing anything about it."
if i want a dictatorship i would move to china. he don't have all the power. the court should have him by the balls and so should congress but they aren't doin shit. i hope our idiot president reads this. moron!
If you read those 2 executive orders, you will see that they come from Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter during their terms, respectively.
Get over it. If you want security, you have to give up some of your freedom and that's that. You can quote Jefferson all you want, but do you think he planned on lunatic moslems flying jet planes into our buildings?
if im on a cell phone and say the word "bomb" or anything else, my line automatically gets tapped and recorded.
So the government knows when you say "bomb" on your cell, but it doesn't know that your jewish? Something's not jiiving here.
This isn't the movie "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith as MajinB. This is real life. No one is tapping you. They are tapping actual terrorists.
I hate to go back to hollywood, but have you seen anything in the hit series "24"? That's far more realistic than "Enemy of the State". When looking at plots like that, that get foiled (and they are out there), I really don't mind it so much if they are tapping the lines of a few blatant terrorists.
As a Jew, I would think you would be first to recognize the need for phone taps.... unless you disapprove of the existence of Israel.
So the government knows when you say "bomb" on your cell, but it doesn't know that your jewish? Something's not jiiving here.
This isn't the movie "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith as MajinB. This is real life. No one is tapping you. They are tapping actual terrorists.
I hate to go back to hollywood, but have you seen anything in the hit series "24"? That's far more realistic than "Enemy of the State". When looking at plots like that, that get foiled (and they are out there), I really don't mind it so much if they are tapping the lines of a few blatant terrorists.
As a Jew, I would think you would be first to recognize the need for phone taps.... unless you disapprove of the existence of Israel.
ok i get your point. but if they have a pic of me it would be more likely to be racial profiling. which funny enough I AM TOTALLY for.
the difference between israel and america is that isreal has been dealing with it for over 50 years. america has been dealing with it for like 5. see the difference? america don't have random suicide bombers every other day, if not everyday like israel. huge difference.
side note- how do you know if they are terrorists? i mean its like being guilty till proven innocent. completely against americas laws.
Hey guys, do yourselves a favor and read the book "1984" or watch the movie.
When will we be arrested for "thought crime"?? Seriously, I am beginning to feel safer abroad than here. There should remain a limit to how far anyone can pry into your life. When will we allow cameras in our homes and bedrooms? So the government can watch us for any "suspicious" activity? When will I get arrested for having my own opinions?
These things always start slowly, under the guise of security or whatnot. Everything I just typed is ALSO possibly monitored somewhere. When will the government tell me how I can have sex in my own bedroom? Oh, I forgot, they actually already DO, but it's impossible to enforce. Yes, there are laws regarding the missionary position, etc.
Bush is a dangerous man. He may in honest not think so, but he is dangerous to the american way of life. Funny how he wants to take "our" way of life to other parts of the world, but impose "their" ways here.
There is certainly a record of ALL the sites we all visit, (especially the porn ones), records of what you buy, where you go, etc, etc, etc. Probably how you wipe your A$$. And remember, un-educated people are easely led. I come from a country where the government wants to know EVERYTHING about your life. I don't want to see this happen here.
yea i read that book. its messed up beyong belief. i agree with tinman here. ya cant tell me what i can and can't say, do or feel. thats completly against the constitution. and what bush is doin is against the bill of rights.
1984 was a good book. But it failed to account for the triumph of the human spirit, it looked only at greed and selfishness, and not love or compassion.
Scary book, indeed... but where do you draw the line? If you know someone is a terrorist, but a judge won't accept your proof, and therefore you can't listen to their wiretaps.... what then? Do you want blood on your hands when you can't stop an attack that was the result of over-restrictive judges or what-not?
Movies like "Enemy of the State" are not realistic. I agree with racial profiling, but there is a difference between a person that is Jewish and a person that is Muslim... or an Arab with a headscarf that attends a Wahabbi sect mosque. I'm not a threat to the nation. I never intend to be. The wiretaps protect me, not infringe on my rights. And I don't feel that anyone who plans to perform terrorist acts on this country should be given any rights, either, whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants.
You'll never be arrested for "thought crime", but you will be arrested for harboring terrorists, plotting to kill someone, starting to put together materials for a bomb, etc. If you see a problem with this, maybe America isn't your country, but I really doubt anyone would really feel safer abroad than they do here, or they'd have gone already.
1984 was a good book. But it failed to account for the triumph of the human spirit, it looked only at greed and selfishness, and not love or compassion.
Scary book, indeed... but where do you draw the line? If you know someone is a terrorist, but a judge won't accept your proof, and therefore you can't listen to their wiretaps.... what then? Do you want blood on your hands when you can't stop an attack that was the result of over-restrictive judges or what-not?
Movies like "Enemy of the State" are not realistic. I agree with racial profiling, but there is a difference between a person that is Jewish and a person that is Muslim... or an Arab with a headscarf that attends a Wahabbi sect mosque. I'm not a threat to the nation. I never intend to be. The wiretaps protect me, not infringe on my rights. And I don't feel that anyone who plans to perform terrorist acts on this country should be given any rights, either, whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants.
Just my opinion.
According to the Patriot Act, and Bush's twisted mind, YOU ARE a threat unless proven otherwise. How does THAT make you feel?
I understand that this is a delicate matter, and there is probably no right way to handle it to everyone's satisfaction, but to be assumed guilty by default is not right.
They may as well put me in jail as a preventative measure. I MIGHT kill someone in my life. I MIGHT plan something... I MIGHT speed. I MIGHT do a lot of things. So why not just put me in prison now, before I have the chance ? This is starting to sound like the former east Germany where I came from. Noo, no. Not again. I saw enough machine gun toting guards on the streets in my childhood days. "For public safety"
It was so you couldn't leave.
This whole thing reminds me of Civil Protection in half-life 2.
So the Patriot act was extended for 6 months while they figure out what else to do. I hope they can come up with a compromise that does not label every poor dumb joe in this (once great) country as a potential terrorist by default.
But I am sure as long as there are so many sheeple in this country willing to be monitored 24/7 in the guise of "safety", our true freedom will continue to erode. Funny how this is creating the very thing that America was founded against.
yes i can get arrested for "thought crime"
1. "im gonna shoot up the school"
2. "im gonna shoot up the mall"
3. "im gonna go insert place here and insert crime here"
tinman is right. its what i was saying. you have to PROVE your innocent. not the other way around. its unconstitutional
You'll never be arrested for "thought crime", but you will be arrested for harboring terrorists, plotting to kill someone, starting to put together materials for a bomb, etc. If you see a problem with this, maybe America isn't your country, but I really doubt anyone would really feel safer abroad than they do here, or they'd have gone already.
Not YET! But science fiction has an eerie way of becomming reality.
And you SHOULD be arrested for the other. As I said, this is a delicate matter.
There is scum everywhere in the world. But do we really want to give up all of our privacy so we as an individual can prove we are NOT criminals? For christs sake, the crooks in this country (thanks to lawyers) have more rights already than the rest of us!! But that's another subject. I live here, work here, and pay my taxes because my family escaped from the very system that Bush is trying to create HERE.
Oh well I agree with that. One of my uncle's was unjustly accused of something by a high school girl who's own grandmother was going to testify against her. However his lawyer advised him to plead guilty even though he was innocent, because in this case he would have to "prove his innocence". That sort of thing is very unconstitutional. However if someone claimed they were going to shoot up a school and were then simply "spied on" - I see nothing wrong with that. Then if the child is observed walking to school with a gun, arresting him would not be out of the question. However to proceed from "I will shoot up the school" straight to him being arrested is definitely unconstitutional-agreed.
