Political DiscussionA place to hold political debates and general discussion. Please remember to always respect the opinions of other members and above all else, be civil.
On one hand, I don't trust our elected officials, OR their appointee's.
On the other hand, I trust that they are monitoring terrorists however they can, with or without my knowledge, and if they are... that's fine by me.
I know it's just a show, but have you ever seen "24"? It's pretty freaky if you realize just how dangerous our freedoms allow a select few to be. I'm all for guns, but some guns in the wrong hands can be dangerous. I'm all for household chemicals, but they can be dangerous in the hands of an experienced bomb-maker. I'm all for morphine... in the hands of a doctor.
When it comes down to it, it's understandible to realize that in time of war, freedoms can be scaled back for the good of ALL. Japanese were not herded into concentration camps in WW2, they were put in camps that protected them. YES, it was probably overkill, but if it saved lives, then it was a needed evil. They weren't tortured there. They weren't bayonetted by guards. They lived there, with food and sanitation and medical treatment. In the Civil War, Lincoln suspended certain civil liberties as well.
In times of war, we don't need to be divided. We need to be united against our enemy. Right now, potential terrorists are LOVING IT that certain people are on their side, complaining that the government is doing this. Terrorists don't it easier for the government to tap their phonecalls.
The worst part is that a majority of the people that area against all this aren't actually against the wiretapping, they are against Bush, and are looking for any freaking way they can find to impeach him or depose him. Their hatred for Bush is more of a factor than doing what is best for the people of this country. That's just sick.
This isn't a time of war. This is life. The war on terror can not be won. To the guys on the other side they can call it the Crusades. This is soooo much like the war on drugs its not funny. Define "win" in the context of "win the war on terror." You cant. As long as there is one person plotting we didn't "win" So why should we change up our rights? More people die a year from drunk driving than from all our terrorist attacks so why don't we have check points on every on ramp after 8pm?
The problem with spying is we all do something wrong. Some of us date 17 year old girls. Some of us collect guns. Some of us sale items on E-bay and never report to the IRS. Some of us speed through canyons at over 100mph. Some of us say man I wish G.W. would die. We all do something that's against a rule. Now what happens when they decide to cash in their chips. Why would they let you go? because your white? because they don't have time? I am sorry but I don't want to be investigated to find the crime. I want to be investigated once they already know what they are looking for out of me.
Don't blindly trust beurocrats(I am one, I took a test I aced it so now i can effect you) and politicians. They are there because they outspent the next guy to get elected not because they're soooo smart. Why are we willing to "cut and run" from our constitution because of the loss of a few Americans. we lost 1/3 of 9/11 to hurricanes this year. Where is the money and the loss of rights to protect us from weather? Honestly it would be easier to set up road blocks on every on-ramp and move everyone out of the gulf coast than it would be to stop terrorism.
O yeah and the NSA had 2 guys in San Diego under investigation. They were calling a safe house in Lebanon. The NSA found out this house is where the embassy bombings were planned. Luckily we know where these 2 men are now. They died in a plane crash in 2001. The NSA couldn't tell the FBI to investigate these guys for what they were doing inside America. So they went unchecked and were 2 of the guys who hi-jacked the planes. We don't need our liberties pulled back. We need our agencies to communicate with each other.
I guess we get our rights back when we "win" until then changing our society is "letting the terrorists win"
I dont blame Bush or Clinton for terrorism. I blame terrorist. However terrorist are not good enough to justify why we can now spy on our citizens. Why is the govt trying to lower the charges on our citizens right now? The case for 1 american enemy combatant was headed to the supreme court so the state department lowered the charges to keep it out of their hands. I thought the supreme court was going to be good for anti-terrorist now? Why did we allow another american citizen we held for 3 years go back to saudi arabia and give up his american citizenship? What are we fvcking up in these cases? These men are "enemy combatants" We spied on them and caught them. Now we let them go because it turns out no they were just americans? Theres only 2 options 1) we tortured them 2)they are innocent and were held for 3 years with no defense. So now that I know what they do with us when they catch us yeah go ahead and spy.
I never really understood why we have "checks and balances" until now. Now it really makes sense. It may take a minute but it looks like things are going to be balanced again soon.
Last edited by nick95673 : 12-30-2005 at 12:55 PM.
The problem with spying is we all do something wrong. Some of us date 17 year old girls. Some of us collect guns. Some of us sale items on E-bay and never report to the IRS. Some of us speed through canyons at over 100mph.
some of us do all of the above
on a more serious note, i'm not flaming anyone, because we all hold our opinions for one reason or another, and i respect that... so if you want to comment on my posts, that's cool... but be a man about it like silverdevil ... flame wars are pointless, because we're not going to change our values over what some random dude in a forum said... want to make an educated response? awesome, i'd love to hear your ideas... want to just say some dumb shit cuz you don't have anything intelligent to say? then just STFU...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
The worst part is that a majority of the people that area against all this aren't actually against the wiretapping, they are against Bush, and are looking for any freaking way they can find to impeach him or depose him. Their hatred for Bush is more of a factor than doing what is best for the people of this count
i agree... not saying that that applies to anyone in here, but it's still true...
No. I am for common sense. We dont need everything in it. Making new laws doesnt fix a problem. It creates more. We have the patriot act and we still dont have iter-agency communication. What we need is law men heading up these groups. Not beurocrats and politicians.
well im not flaming but heres what i have to say.
the fact that the patriot act was extended means bad bad things. why? cause it can be "extended" for as long as bush needs it. does anyone realize how long it takes for "congress" to do ANYTHING? i mean lets get real. they don't do shit. they get paid 40k a year for the rest of their lives just for being in office ONCE. just once. they do nothing there.
well im not flaming but heres what i have to say.
the fact that the patriot act was extended means bad bad things. why? cause it can be "extended" for as long as bush needs it. does anyone realize how long it takes for "congress" to do ANYTHING? i mean lets get real. they don't do shit. they get paid 40k a year for the rest of their lives just for being in office ONCE. just once. they do nothing there.
You have way too much anger against Bush, and not enough common sense.
This isn't about Bush at all. This is about national security. Some nutjobs have done a good job of convincing people that Bush is trying to create some empire or something with him at the head
im angry cause i feel that my basic rights are being violated. and yes it is his fault. explain how its not.
It's not like this is the first time it's happened. It's been happening all along. Nobody cares about you and your personal life, certainly not the government. There is no conspiracy out there to find out information about MajinB to cause your downfall. There aren't enough g-men to monitor the terrorists, much less people who are not a threat like you and me.
The only reason you are making a big deal out of this is because you hope that you can get Bush impeached because of it. If you knew that there was no hope of effecting his popularity in the least by this, then you wouldn't care a bit.
Ok lets say this isnt Bush's fault. However Bush is the leader. There for he gets the credit and the blame. Its the way it works. You get to be loved when things go well and hated when they go bad. Its just this isnt the civil war or ww2 so he isnt licoln. This war is hardly worth fighting. It was started as a threat to Iran and North Korea. What did they learn? america will get bogged down in Iraq while we do what we want. While talking to North korea and adventually letting them have nuke power what did Iran learn? Keep doing what you want and they will learn to deal with it. So the secondary reasons for going to war fell through. Lets look at the primary reason. The huge loss of american life in a unpresidented event. 3000 people isnt sh!t its hardly a blip on the radar. In 2001 California had 3956(42,196 nationally http://www.madd.org/stats/4809 ) traffic related fatalities. That dwarfs 9/11 and its only one state. I dont see any new traffic spying going on. In fact I see less police. If we always react the way we did to 9/11 to such small problems why do people get to walk the streets within a year of being convicted of dui's hell in 2001 dui's killed 17,400 people. By the Bush logic dui's should come with a 3 year prison term with no trial no evidence no representation and a slight case of torture.
Muslim terrorists are not that good. They got one good shot off because we were stupid. Theres no reason to let people on planes with blades or sharp objects. We should have armed gaurds around all water purification plants. But spying is not going to catch anyone. After 9/11 we let a shoe bomber on a plane. Why are we wasting money spying on people rather than employing more cops or buying bomb detecting machines for airports. I mean even if we let the terrorist slip through every layer of security the guys at the airport could have stopped it all by saying "wtf you gonna open up on the plane? No you can buy a new one when you land." Wow do we really need a war, spies and the patriot act? No we need common sense.
You cant win the war on terror. To say we get our rights back when we have won is sad. Thats like saying drugs will go away. We have gangs in our largest and most succesful communities. They die for the idea of one day moving a kilo so they can own a navigator. We cant stop them. Now imagine they really thought they commited crimes to help the lord and to get laid for eternity. If we cant stop them inside our cities why would we be able to stop them outside. Hell if i thought i could get 1 non annoying virgin for eternity I would go nuts too.
Groups our gov't was spying on with out any reason other than they think something may happen
PETA
Greenpeace
Catholic workers group
The problem with our guys spying on us is what happens when an FBI agenst asks somebody how they feel about bush? If I told the truth they would have more than enough of a reason to open a file on me. Now I am being investigated because I think we are wasting bullets in the sand and I like animals?
Oh yeah and the beloved elections. The ones that will open up Iraq. I wonder what one of the largest political groups will be called? Iraqocrat? irabucin? Nope they went with the "Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq" http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...para/sciri.htm
Bush gets credit for the 3 elections in one year.
Bush get the blame for pretty much turning 1 nation in to 3 with deep hatred for fellow countryman and for one of the leading parties being named what I would name a terrorist group.
Last edited by nick95673 : 01-01-2006 at 01:30 AM.
... flame wars are pointless, because we're not going to change our values over what some random dude in a forum said... want to make an educated response? awesome, i'd love to hear your ideas... want to just say some dumb shit cuz you don't have anything intelligent to say? then just STFU...
