Political DiscussionA place to hold political debates and general discussion. Please remember to always respect the opinions of other members and above all else, be civil.
Not YET! But science fiction has an eerie way of becomming reality.
And you SHOULD be arrested for the other. As I said, this is a delicate matter.
There is scum everywhere in the world. But do we really want to give up all of our privacy so we as an individual can prove we are NOT criminals? For christs sake, the crooks in this country (thanks to lawyers) have more rights already than the rest of us!! But that's another subject. I live here, work here, and pay my taxes because my family escaped from the very system that Bush is trying to create HERE.
So really I think the argument here is just how much privacy should we as Americans have to give up for the sake of our own protection, not if spying on suspected criminals is totally wrong. Am I correct?
So really I think the argument here is just how much privacy should we as Americans have to give up for the sake of our own protection, not if spying on suspected criminals is totally wrong. Am I correct?
That's correct. I don't have any objection to cameras in stores, etc, for example. In public, I have nothing to hide. In my own home, I do not wish to be "preemptively" (sp?) monitored on my phone, internet, whatever. It's scary to think that there are ALREADY profiles of all of us here, and what sites we visit, etc. Do you surf a lot of Porn sites? Will you be profiled somewhere as a potential rapist BECAUSE you surf Porn? What do you buy, rent. Where do you shop? Do all my Amazon orders get reported to the office of Homeland security?
It's this sort of thing that scares me. If the government or law enforcement has good cause to keep an eye on me, then they should have the tools to do so. But those tools should not be available "just because" I want to see what YOU do in your life, and I know nothing about you. I just want to see what you do, and maybe I can find some dirt on you. That's simply going too far.
For all I know, every letter of this text is being analyzed at this moment to check for keywords, and possibly where my loyalties lie? It's not a farfetched thought at all. I have considered using a very high level of encryption for my emails with a friend who has heart disease in germany. We just talk, since he cannot do much of anything, not even sweat. I fear he may not have long. But the encryption crossed my mind because A) my letters are nobodies business, and B) WOULD someone come and investigate WHY I am encrypting my email, proving that we are indeed being monitored by the government.
Anyone want to take the chance and find out?
If anything, rather than legalising broad range spying on the american public, make the court process faster for cases that ARE justified.
Scary book, indeed... but where do you draw the line? If you know someone is a terrorist, but a judge won't accept your proof, and therefore you can't listen to their wiretaps.... what then? Do you want blood on your hands when you can't stop an attack that was the result of over-restrictive judges or what-not?
We need to draw the line with the law. Do you know why the monarchies fell in Europe? Because economies depend on lawfulness. Businesses need to know that nobody is above the law because that creates stability and foments economic prosperity. Civil liberties and economic growth go hand-in-hand. You would think that someone with an MBA from Harvard would know that.
We have laws for a reason. The framers of the Constitution built in the three powers as they were to protect us from tyranical governments and men trying to assume too much power for the government. That is why a judge has to sit and hear the arguments. Don't you think it should be left up to an impartial judge to decide if people should be spied upon? Whatever evidence they have can be taken in front of a judge and he can decide. That is supposed to protect people from political and religious persecution.
If you were Michael Moore and the government could use its powers without having to clear it through a judge, you'd be afraid. Not because you are a "threat" to the country, but because you speak out against those in power. That is horrible for democracy.
Also, if one judge is "over-restrictive," you can always go to another judge. There isn't a shortage of federal justices, last I checked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
I'm not a threat to the nation. I never intend to be. The wiretaps protect me, not infringe on my rights. And I don't feel that anyone who plans to perform terrorist acts on this country should be given any rights, either, whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants.
Just my opinion.
So, you don't mind the government listening in on your private conversations with your doctor or your wife just because you're "not a threat" to the country? That's absurd! The wiretaps don't protect your rights, they invade and intrude upon them. As U.S. citizens, and even as human beings, we have certain rights that should never be trampled without DUE PROCESS OF LAW.
^All good points... But we're at war now with an enemy that really doesn't live by any laws or ethics. I wish and hope they are spying on "some" (meaning those w/Al Queda ties) of these Islamo Facists in mosques and middle eastern communities. I'm sick of everyone crying about "rights" just because your a foreigner in America. You gave those up when you decided to associate yourself w/Terrorism.
^All good points... But we're at war now with an enemy that really doesn't live by any laws or ethics. I wish and hope they are spying on "some" (meaning those w/Al Queda ties) of these Islamo Facists in mosques and middle eastern communities. I'm sick of everyone crying about "rights" just because your a foreigner in America. You gave those up when you decided to associate yourself w/Terrorism.
Innocent until proven guilty, right? Well, until the government can prove to a judge that terrorism suspects are what they claim they are, they are innocent and their rights should be protected.
Did your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right? This is a perfect example. If we give up our ethics we are reduced to their level and lose the moral and ethical battles as well as risking losing popular world support (as has happened due to torture, mistreatment, secret prisons, etc.). I have no problem with domestic espionage so long as it's judge-approved!
BTW, who coined the "Islamo-Fascist" term? Fascism is an authoritative form of government that places the state above all other interests. These people are placing religion above all other interests. Fascism is governmental segregation based, mostly, on economic standing that needs a sense of patriotism to survive.
On a side note, I think the U.S. is moving straight into that direction. The Republic of United Fascist States, that's what we'll be known as soon enough.
So, you don't mind the government listening in on your private conversations with your doctor or your wife just because you're "not a threat" to the country? That's absurd! The wiretaps don't protect your rights, they invade and intrude upon them. As U.S. citizens, and even as human beings, we have certain rights that should never be trampled without DUE PROCESS OF LAW.
There is a HUGE difference between me and a terrorist. The government will not be listening in on me, they are listening in on avowed terrorists, where there is a pressing need! This isn't about the gov't listening to me at all.
The wiretaps don't intrude on my rights at all, they intrude upon the rights of those that don't deserve them, aka terrorists that would like to take away my right to LIFE.
Do you think there isn't oversite on these wiretaps or what? They are reviewed to make sure that they are justified and appropriate. A whopping 500 wiretaps have been made thus far, I highly doubt that me, you, or Michael Moore is on that list. I don't see why anyone has a problem with that, unless you are just a regular Bush-hater. I just wish the Bush-haters would look at things objectively, and support the good ideas that he has, they can still hate him and I don't care. But this *IS* a security issue, national security.
There is a HUGE difference between me and a terrorist. The government will not be listening in on me, they are listening in on avowed terrorists, where there is a pressing need! This isn't about the gov't listening to me at all.
The wiretaps don't intrude on my rights at all, they intrude upon the rights of those that don't deserve them, aka terrorists that would like to take away my right to LIFE.
Do you think there isn't oversite on these wiretaps or what? They are reviewed to make sure that they are justified and appropriate. A whopping 500 wiretaps have been made thus far, I highly doubt that me, you, or Michael Moore is on that list. I don't see why anyone has a problem with that, unless you are just a regular Bush-hater. I just wish the Bush-haters would look at things objectively, and support the good ideas that he has, they can still hate him and I don't care. But this *IS* a security issue, national security.
Zap, I feel where you're coming from and I wish I was as ignorant to the collection means as most Americans. I work at the Defense Intelligence Agence (DIA) and I deal with HUMINT and SIGINT (Human Intelligence Collection and Signal Intelligence Collection) on a daily basis. The SIGINT used by NSA is INDISCRIMINATE. What does that mean? If they are recording Abu's cell phone conversation, everyone using the same cell tower is being recorded as well. That is why they require very sensitive and explicit authorizations.
Also, did you know that intelligence gathered in this manner is not usable in court? That is why Jose Padilla was in jail so long without charges and finally got charged on some bogus allegation that the government thinks will stick. They cannot reveal the information because that reveals the sources and methods used to collect it. That would threaten national security because of how classified those systems are. It puts the government in Pandora's position: if they reveal what they know they will be punished. It also puts them in Cassandra's position: that of knowing but not being able to tell or not being believed if they do.
So, my friend, I hope you don't use the same cell tower or ISP as a "suspected terrorist" because, if you do, all your info is being tracked and recorded. What do you think they do with it, btw, trash it? Of course not, my naive friend. It, too, is scanned, catalogued, and stored. Welcome to 1984!
The volume of information harvested from telecommunication data and voice networks, without court-approved warrants, is much larger than the White House has acknowledged, the officials said. It was collected by tapping directly into some of the American telecommunication system's main arteries, they said.
I told you it was indiscriminate. Here is another one proving what I said earlier:
Quote:
What has not been publicly acknowledged is that N.S.A. technicians, besides actually eavesdropping on specific conversations, have combed through large volumes of phone and Internet traffic in search of patterns that might point to terrorism suspects. Some officials describe the program as a large data-mining operation.
The "listen" in on you and don't throw your data away. Instead, they comb through it to see if you fit any pattern. That is illegal and unconstitutional.
I told you it was indiscriminate. Here is another one proving what I said earlier:
The "listen" in on you and don't throw your data away. Instead, they comb through it to see if you fit any pattern. That is illegal and unconstitutional.
Okay, so they search the internet for any patterns that might make you out to be a terrorist. SO DOES GOOGLE. Google reports it to the government as a matter of fact.
I seriously doubt the government has the time, resources, or care to look through *MY* telephone records. This program has done more good than bad for the 99.99% of americans that don't hate america. The Gov't doesn't care about your flings, your sexual preference, or your dinner last night. GWB doesn't care.
Bottom line is that there are some things that I would rather be ignorant about. Torture of captured terrorists (which we don't know anything about), wiretaps (which we know very little about), where Bin Laden last slept (which we know nothing about), etc.... I don't need to know that. I just want to know that the gov't is using all the tools in it's arsenal to keep us safe. And wiretaps are one of those tools. Terrorists don't deserve civil liberties. And my liberties aren't being threatened.
What makes you think that your elected leaders are interested in keeping YOU safe? They are far more interested in keeping THEMSELVES safe. Our government couldn't even respond to a natural disaster in our own country. But are they ever johnny on the spot when it's someplace else.
No, ladies and Gentlemen, this is not about OUR safety at all, but to push a much larger agenda. But the people that are ok with all this, will be the first to bitterly complain whenit finally affects THEM in a negative way. Trust me, Germany is much worse. But the US is catching up fast. Regardless of what may be said here, I do NOT want my privacy invaded and scrutinized by a blanket law. The government probably knows damn well who they have just cause to keep tabs on, and a court order still allows this.
Isn't it wonderful that we can have totally different opinions here without being censored or punished by our views? Zap, let me know how you feel when your right to speak your mind is taken away in the name of "security".
I don't need terrorists to feel insecure, the SUV's on the 405 freeway scare me MUCH more than some religious fanatic.
I work at the Defense Intelligence Agence (DIA) and I deal with HUMINT and SIGINT (Human Intelligence Collection and Signal Intelligence Collection) on a daily basis.
disclaimer: i'm not trying to start shit, just proving a point: that "the enemy is everywhere", and that the monitoring of American citizens is a necessary evil... i will be the first to agree with the "if you're doing nothing wrong, then don't worry", but instead of posting my OPINION, i am writing only FACTS... they say to beat the enemy, think like the enemy... so here goes...
let's see... there are around 7000 of you DIA employees... those 7000 are spread everywhere from the Pentagon to Redstone Arsenal... and you have already proclaimed that a) you are Puerto Rican, b) you are 29 years old, c) you drive a Flint Mica Scion tC, and d) you live in the DC area, so chances are you either work at the Pentagon or at Bolling AFB...
you state that you deal with HUMINT on a daily basis... then you of all people should know that a large portion of HUMINT is concerned with "tracking a subject of investigation"... how many middle-aged Puerto Ricans leave your compound every day after work in a Flint Mica Scion tC?... my guess is not many... but you're still more concerned with the fact that an American intelligence collection agent MAY be monitoring your phone rather than the fact that an individual involved in an extremist plot to cause harm to you or your loved ones MAY be trolling the Internet and reading these forums and taking notes... HUMINT is a worldwide intelligence collection discipline, so don't be naive and think that WE are not being monitored by foreign agents...
as an agent of the DIA, you know all about OPSEC... i'm sure there are those cheesy government slogans on cheesy government posters all around your workplace ("loose lips sink ships", etc)... hell, there are even OPSEC posters directly in front of your face above the urinals that you stare at every time you go take a piss...
OPSEC is defined as "the effort to protect operations by identifying and controlling intelligence indicators susceptible to exploitation"... declaring to the world that you work for the DIA is NOT very good OPSEC... anyone with half a brain could deduce that you hold a security clearance due to the demands of your career field... hit a search engine and look into security clearances, and you could also assume that your clearance involves access to secure compartmented information, meaning that you are in regular contact with information that may cause grave damage to the United States and/or it's allies if it "fell into the wrong hands"... does this make you a potential target?... absolutely...
simple little things like this random post on a random page of a random Web site (or a call from an American citizen's cell phone) can set into motion a chain of events that has the potential to be unbelievably devastating... I don't want that to happen...
THAT'S why we do it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdevil
Zap, I feel where you're coming from and I wish I was as ignorant to the collection means as most Americans
oh, and before you try to flame me citing that i got my information from a faulty search engine or some shit like that, let me make one thing clear: i am an expert in my career field, and i am by absolutely no means as "ignorant to the collection means as most Americans", so don't go there...
edit: one more thing.. ZapThyCat, you're fvckin awesome... when shit finally does go down because enough uneducated people have pissed and moaned and our nation's leadership is forced to change their policy, don't worry... me and my boys got your back
Last edited by usafcushman : 12-29-2005 at 10:19 PM.
disclaimer: i'm not trying to start shit, just proving a point: that "the enemy is everywhere", and that the monitoring of American citizens is a necessary evil... i will be the first to agree with the "if you're doing nothing wrong, then don't worry", but instead of posting my OPINION, i am writing only FACTS... they say to beat the enemy, think like the enemy... so here goes...
let's see... there are around 7000 of you DIA employees... those 7000 are spread everywhere from the Pentagon to Redstone Arsenal... and you have already proclaimed that a) you are Puerto Rican, b) you are 29 years old, c) you drive a Flint Mica Scion tC, and d) you live in the DC area, so chances are you either work at the Pentagon or at Bolling AFB...
you state that you deal with HUMINT on a daily basis... then you of all people should know that a large portion of HUMINT is concerned with "tracking a subject of investigation"... how many middle-aged Puerto Ricans leave your compound every day after work in a Flint Mica Scion tC?... my guess is not many... but you're still more concerned with the fact that an American intelligence collection agent MAY be monitoring your phone rather than the fact that an individual involved in an extremist plot to cause harm to you or your loved ones MAY be trolling the Internet and reading these forums and taking notes... HUMINT is a worldwide intelligence collection discipline, so don't be naive and think that WE are not being monitored by foreign agents...
as an agent of the DIA, you know all about OPSEC... i'm sure there are those cheesy government slogans on cheesy government posters all around your workplace ("loose lips sink ships", etc)... hell, there are even OPSEC posters directly in front of your face above the urinals that you stare at every time you go take a piss...
OPSEC is defined as "the effort to protect operations by identifying and controlling intelligence indicators susceptible to exploitation"... declaring to the world that you work for the DIA is NOT very good OPSEC... anyone with half a brain could deduce that you hold a security clearance due to the demands of your career field... hit a search engine and look into security clearances, and you could also assume that your clearance involves access to secure compartmented information, meaning that you are in regular contact with information that may cause grave damage to the United States and/or it's allies if it "fell into the wrong hands"... does this make you a potential target?... absolutely...
simple little things like this random post on a random page of a random Web site (or a call from an American citizen's cell phone) can set into motion a chain of events that has the potential to be unbelievably devastating... I don't want that to happen...
THAT'S why we do it...
oh, and before you try to flame me citing that i got my information from a faulty search engine or some shit like that, let me make one thing clear: i am an expert in my career field, and i am by absolutely no means as "ignorant to the collection means as most Americans", so don't go there...
edit: one more thing.. ZapThyCat, you're fvckin awesome... when shit finally does go down because enough uneducated people have pissed and moaned and our nation's leadership is forced to change their policy, don't worry... me and my boys got your back
You make some very good points. However, I'm not concerned about people knowing that I work at DIA nor that I hold a security clearance. Anyone searching Monster.com (or other such sites) will find my resume readily available. I'm totally overt so disclosing these (and other things) is not an OPSEC concern.
What pisses me off is that my government proclaims to be the guiding-light of freedom in the world and then snatches it, illegally, from its own citizens. As I stated before, I have no problem with monitoring SO LONG AS IT'S DONE IN ACCORDANCE TO OUR EXISTING LAWS. If Bush wants to monitor someone he thinks is a terrorist, and goes through the appropriate legal channels to do so, then I'm 100% in agreement. However, when people's rights are violated in Data Mining operations, I have a huge problem.
I'm all about following the law. The law is above everyone and if you don't agree with it, you don't circumvent it, you change it. I don't care how "important" a cause is, it's not worth braking the law.
BTW, I repped you because your post is quite amazing.
You make some very good points. However, I'm not concerned about people knowing that I work at DIA nor that I hold a security clearance. Anyone searching Monster.com (or other such sites) will find my resume readily available. I'm totally overt so disclosing these (and other things) is not an OPSEC concern.
What pisses me off is that my government proclaims to be the guiding-light of freedom in the world and then snatches it, illegally, from its own citizens. As I stated before, I have no problem with monitoring SO LONG AS IT'S DONE IN ACCORDANCE TO OUR EXISTING LAWS. If Bush wants to monitor someone he thinks is a terrorist, and goes through the appropriate legal channels to do so, then I'm 100% in agreement. However, when people's rights are violated in Data Mining operations, I have a huge problem.
I'm all about following the law. The law is above everyone and if you don't agree with it, you don't circumvent it, you change it. I don't care how "important" a cause is, it's not worth braking the law.
BTW, I repped you because your post is quite amazing.
i sincerely appreciate the fact that you took the time to read what i wrote instead of just saying "fvck you"... i understand that your post above was not an OPSEC violation, i was just pointing out what a seemingly harmless response in a forum can actually produce if someone wants to read into it... i apologize for singling you out, and i hope you didn't take offense... nothing personal, but you were the only example i could work with to prove my point...
and i wholeheartedly agree that there is a protocol that is to be followed, whether you are a lowly civil servant (i.e. you and me lol) or the President of the United States... i have not had much time recently to read into the NSA reports concerning the phone taps, and apparently now the NSA's web site has been placing files on visitors' computers that can track their Web surfing activity, but i haven't read much concerning that either (disclaimer to you concerned readers: all of this is open source information from agencies such as CNN; no, i'm not disclosing classified information)...
i guess the moral of this story is that we both make valid points, and both of us are right in out own respects... we may have a difference of opinion when it comes to the overall scheme of things, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so no harm done there...
on another note, i appreciate everything that you do with the DIA... i work for an organization known as NSA/CSS Texas, so i know that not only is your job not an easy one, but that you are an integral part of maintaining our nation's security...
so for stepping up to do something not many others have the capacity to do, and +1 rep for stepping up and delivering your response in an intelligent and thought-out manner... and thanks again
so instead of saying it in 3 paragraphs ill say it in a few sentences.
constitution is a living document, meaning it can be changed. bill of rights exists as part of the constitution. bush is violating both. if congress decides to change the laws of the living document then so be it. but till then bush is an idiot. he should be impeached for violating our most basic right of freedom, the freedom of privacy. this ain't russia. bush is a f3ckin moron. that is all.
i sincerely appreciate the fact that you took the time to read what i wrote instead of just saying "fvck you"... i understand that your post above was not an OPSEC violation, i was just pointing out what a seemingly harmless response in a forum can actually produce if someone wants to read into it... i apologize for singling you out, and i hope you didn't take offense... nothing personal, but you were the only example i could work with to prove my point...
and i wholeheartedly agree that there is a protocol that is to be followed, whether you are a lowly civil servant (i.e. you and me lol) or the President of the United States... i have not had much time recently to read into the NSA reports concerning the phone taps, and apparently now the NSA's web site has been placing files on visitors' computers that can track their Web surfing activity, but i haven't read much concerning that either (disclaimer to you concerned readers: all of this is open source information from agencies such as CNN; no, i'm not disclosing classified information)...
i guess the moral of this story is that we both make valid points, and both of us are right in out own respects... we may have a difference of opinion when it comes to the overall scheme of things, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so no harm done there...
on another note, i appreciate everything that you do with the DIA... i work for an organization known as NSA/CSS Texas, so i know that not only is your job not an easy one, but that you are an integral part of maintaining our nation's security...
so for stepping up to do something not many others have the capacity to do, and +1 rep for stepping up and delivering your response in an intelligent and thought-out manner... and thanks again
I say the same of you. At least you reply in a lucid, well-thought out manner and don't flame and call me names as some others do if you don't agree with their opinion. Thanks and keep doing your part keep us safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajinB
so instead of saying it in 3 paragraphs ill say it in a few sentences.
constitution is a living document, meaning it can be changed. bill of rights exists as part of the constitution. bush is violating both. if congress decides to change the laws of the living document then so be it. but till then bush is an idiot. he should be impeached for violating our most basic right of freedom, the freedom of privacy. this ain't russia. bush is a f3ckin moron. that is all.
Well, somewhat. You're right, and I've said all along, Bush should change the laws instead of breaking them (or at least follow them). I don't think he should be impeached for this offense, but that's just my opinion. I do think all this crap needs to be stopped.
I don't like the PATRIOT ACT and would like to see the provisions expire as soon as possible. Not that I don't want to keep our nation safe, but that I'd rather be free to enjoy this country than worrying about who's listening in on my conversation and thinking the government can just throw me in jail for whatever reason, call me an enemy combatant, and not give me my due rights such as a speedy trial, a lawyer, and a jury of my peers. The PATRIOT ACT entitles the government to take these rights from me in the name of National Security.
I guess it all depends if you'd rather be "safe" (in quotes because you can never be safe) or free.
for stepping up to do something not many others have the capacity to do, and +1 rep for stepping up and delivering your response in an intelligent and thought-out manner... and thanks again 
