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Old 08-23-2005   #1 (permalink)
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Why Freedom Of Speech is Dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN.COM
(CNN) -- Conservative Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson has called for the United States to assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, calling him "a terrific danger" bent on exporting Communism and Islamic extremism across the Americas.

"If he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson told viewers on his "The 700 Club" show Monday. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war."

Robertson, a contender for the Republican presidential nomination in 1988, called Chavez "a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us badly."

"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said. "We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Robertson accused Chavez, a left-wing populist with close ties to Cuban President Fidel Castro, of trying to make Venezuela "a launching pad for Communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent."

"This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen," he said.

Chavez has said he believes the United States is trying to assassinate him, vowing that Venezuela, which accounts for more than 10 percent of U.S. oil imports, would shut off the flow of oil if that happens.

Robertson's comments Monday were the latest in a string of controversial remarks in recent years by the religious broadcaster and founder of the Christian Coalition.
Ok, if you read that whole thing, which I found on CNN this morning, maybe you can understand why Freedom of Speech and The Republican Party are a dangerous couple. It's not like we have enough trouble in the world right now, then we get a fanatical right wing religious figure telling the world that we should assassinate a head of state in another country. WTF is he thinking about?


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Old 08-23-2005   #2 (permalink)
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Pat Robertson doesn't represent the current republican mainstream person, so don't generalize.

Just imagine if we generalized that all Democrats were Teddy Kennedy. Yuck.
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Old 08-23-2005   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zadscmc
Pat Robertson doesn't represent the current republican mainstream person, so don't generalize.
He seems to pop up alot of the time though. And he does represent a good portion of it, I don't think anyone that is not "Officially" in the political scheme of it has anywhere near as much freedom to represent his views onto unknowing subjects. Though regardless if he is or not, the fact that he would say something as assinied as this on public television is just absured. Does Pat Robertson think that nobody who is nobody watches his programs? We have enough trouble with Chavez thinking we want to kick his ass, w/o some dip of a possible (past, present or future) political head saying these things.


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Just imagine if we generalized that all Democrats were Teddy Kennedy. Yuck.
God.....I think that would be just as bad if not worse..
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Old 08-23-2005   #4 (permalink)
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Oh goodness. Yeah, he's another nutcase. This nation has enough of them. But that's no reason to cut off freedom of speech! As if there aren't people out there that advocate assassinating GW Bush, or Hillary, or Bin Laden or Kennedy, or Jews, or Catholics, or Protestants, or Muslims... there are all kinds of nutcases out there, there's no need to revoke their freedoms. Let weirdos think as they will....

If anything, this hurts Pat's standing... people will begin to see him for the nutcase he may be. If he seriously considers himself a minister of the Gospel, he needs to ask himself, "What would Jesus do".

Modern day Christianity is really getting away from it's original purpose and goals.... but that's another subject.
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Old 08-23-2005   #5 (permalink)
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yay for the 700 Club..whom without I wouldn't know to skip over channel 18 Sunday morning without stopping to see what's on...YAY!
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Old 08-23-2005   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zadscmc
Pat Robertson doesn't represent the current republican mainstream person, so don't generalize.

Just imagine if we generalized that all Democrats were Teddy Kennedy. Yuck.

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Old 08-23-2005   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZapThyCat
Oh goodness. Yeah, he's another nutcase. This nation has enough of them. But that's no reason to cut off freedom of speech! As if there aren't people out there that advocate assassinating GW Bush, or Hillary, or Bin Laden or Kennedy, or Jews, or Catholics, or Protestants, or Muslims... there are all kinds of nutcases out there, there's no need to revoke their freedoms. Let weirdos think as they will....
Yea.. I'm not saying to take away the freedom.. just think they should really censor what people of any sort of political power or those who have the ability to cause conflicts with what they say to the mass media. It's one thing for me to stand on the side of road and call for the assination of a political figure head (shit they would probably toss me in the pokey for it) and for a person that has the ability to make or even turn a political figure to their thinking to be saying this type of crap over the air waves....

But yes, the dude is a Nut Case maybe the CIA should take him for a ride in the desert and forget him there...
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Old 08-23-2005   #8 (permalink)
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No, censorship is a way of eliminating free speach. We are all free to say what we want. There are consequences, tho, and I'm sure he will pay for it in ratings, at the very least. Hell, if anything it really hinders his chance at running for office.
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Old 08-23-2005   #9 (permalink)
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It's funny how some of you call him a nutcase just because he's a televangelist. Hundreds of politcal commentators have discussed the idea of assassinating Chavez and nobody cares. Many Americans seemed to be in favor of the assassination of political leaders such as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Castro, Bin Laden, etc.

Several years down the line, IF Chavez's government becomes a demonstrated threat to American domestic security (aka, terrorists trained and funded by his government detonate a "dirty" nuclear bomb where you live and people you know and love are killed, you will probably be more than a little upset that the CIA didn't assassinate Chavez back when they had the chance to.

Of course, his gov't may never go so far in it's anti-Americanism as this, but it is possible. (IMO) I agree that Robertson could have been more PC with his personal opinions, especially since he knew the "liberal" media would likely make them front page news, but to say that he should not be allowed to express his opinions is going a bit too far. I shudder to image an America where we are not allowed to say what we think.

For those of you who want a more rounded picture of the media circus surrounding Pat's comments, here is an article that is written from a Robertson-esque viewpoint:
Hugo Chavez vs. America

By Dale Hurd
CBN News Sr. Reporter


CBN.com – CARACAS, Venezuela - His name is Hugo Chavez. He is the president of oil-rich Venezuela. Mr. Chavez has decided that America is his enemy, so he is building up his army. He has forged an alliance with Fidel Castro, and many think he is going to make trouble for the United States. Chavez believes he is in a fight with the devil. But the devil that Chavez fights does not reside in Hell. Chavez believes that the devil resides in Washington.

Chavez has actually been on a collision course with Washington for years. But for the most part, Washington was not paying attention. It is now.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld toured South America recently, trying to fight back against Chavez’ growing influence, but Washington’s concern comes very late in the game, and now a new Cuban-Venezuelan alliance, bankrolled by oil profits, threatens to create a block of anti-American states across Latin America

But Washington's concern has been too little too late, and now some fear that a new Cuban-Venezuelan alliance has a plan to create a new block of Leftist-run, anti-American states across Central and South America.

Internally, Chavez has already rewritten the constitution, stacked the courts and begun throwing political opponents into jail. And some say he is now looking beyond Venezuela's borders. With billions of dollars in oil profits, Chavez is buying advanced Russian fighter planes and helicopters, dramatically increasing the size of his armed forces and integrating it with Cuba's.

Meanwhile, Chavez laughs all the way to the bank. He sits atop one of the largest oil reserves in the world. Venezuela owns CITGO. And as America's fourth largest oil supplier, he believes he has the U.S. by the throat. And he just might.

Chavez calls this revolution "Bolivarian," named after the South American liberator, Simon Bolivar. But for his opponents, this revolution has been anything but liberating.

Maria-Corina Machado, opposition leader and mother of three, faces prison time for simply taking grant money from the National Endowment for Democracy, a program of the United States Congress.

"This is a country where anyone who dares to think and speak differently from the government,” said Machado, “is seen as an enemy."

Machado's group Sumate used the money to educate citizens in democracy. But the Chavez government accused Machado of plotting with the U.S. to overthrow it.

Machado commented, "I have three kids and I tell my kids that their mom could go to jail because of conspiracy, treason to my country, rebellion. These are the kinds of charges put against us."

Opposition figure Enrique Capriles has already spent four months in jail. He told CBN News that he was only released because the street protests over his jail sentence had become an embarrassment to the government.

And at the TV channel Globovision, TV talk show host Leopoldo Castillo has had to learn to keep his acid tongue in check. There is a new censorship law against insulting President Chavez.

Castillo remarked, "David Letterman, every day, in tonight's show, he makes fun of President Bush. Nothing happens. Here, with a new law, if you make fun of the president, of the senior officer of the Supreme Court, of any minister, you can go to jail.”

But if you travel to the barrios of Caracas, you hear a different story. Because here you get the feeling that Chavez is the revenge of the poor on a society that before never seemed to care about them. Many living in grinding poverty believe Venezuela's brand of corrupt capitalism is the reason they are poor. Chavez means hope. Here, he is no dictator.

This Chavista, or follower of Chavez, says he hopes Chavez rules forever. What they say in the USA is a lie," he says, "because Chavez is not a dictator. Chavez is a president who has decided to govern on behalf of the poor."

Last year, Chavez spent four billion dollars in oil profits on social programs, like a sewing co-op, which also includes political indoctrination every morning. State money also funds neighborhood food programs.

Young Chavistas, we were told, "belong to the revolution." And if this is starting to sound to you like Cuba, that's just what a lot of Venezuelans have been thinking, too.

Adolfo Taylhardat should know. He used to be Venezuela's ambassador to Cuba.

Taylhardat said, "…So I'm very much familiar with the internal situation in Cuba. And what I see is that Chavez slowly has been introducing all the elements of the Cuban regime, Cuban system into Venezuela. He wants to make Venezuela be as similar to Cuba as possible. And he wants to present Venezuela as a victim of U.S. imperialism."

In this typical diatribe, Chavez compared capitalism to Count Dracula, Frankenstein, Jack the Ripper and the Boston Strangler, but then added that Capitalists are much worse than those monsters.

Not a single poor person we talked to, no matter how much love they expressed for Chavez, said they wanted Venezuela to turn into Cuba. But that is the direction the country is headed.

Chavez has kicked out American military advisors and brought in Cuban officers. We interviewed a former Venezuelan Army officer, now seeking political asylum in the United States.

Speaking by phone from the Krome Detention Center in Miami, Lieutenant Jose Colina told us, "I was present in meetings in which members of the Cuban government were trying to change the ideology and indoctrinate officials of the Venezuelan Armed Forces, especially those of the National Guard. Without a doubt they were pointing out that we had to fight imperialism, capitalism and its top representative, the United States -- which is also the main cause of poverty and misery in Latin America."

In the barrios of Caracas we met a Cuban doctor, one of thousands of Cubans who now operate low-cost medical clinics for the poor. He said his was not a political mission, but a humanitarian one.

Chavez has been called the "anti-Bush." He has embraced virtually every enemy of the United States, past and present, from Saddam Hussein to Moammar Khaddafy to the Taliban and Iran.

An important early advisor to Chavez was an Argentine Holocaust-denier named Norberto Ceresole.

Ceresole believed that Latin America must forge alliances with Arab nations to fight against the United States and what Ceresole called "the Jewish financial mafia." And a few months ago, Chavez played a major role in the first South American-Arab Summit in Brazil, which attacked both the United States and Israel as the chief enemies of Latin America.

And although his government repeatedly denies it, a large body of evidence suggests that Chavez is harboring and supporting the FARC guerillas of neighboring Colombia, one of the largest and most dangerous terrorist organizations in the world.

Chavez calls the United States the world's greatest menace and says he simply wishes to be left alone to do his work. But there is a growing fear that Chavez is preparing to export his Bolivarian revolution to his neighbors. Why else would he need 100,000 recently purchased Russian AK-47s? Why announce plans to increase the size of the army reserves from 50,000 to 1.5 million? Why the ties to guerilla movements?

Chavez says the arms buildup is defensive. His opponents disagree. Taylhardat says, "He wants to do now what Castro failed to do in the 60s, when he sent out Che Guevarra to export the Cuban revolution to the rest of the continent."

Chavez said, "The U.S. administration is behind the opposition in Venezuela, and Mr. George Bush has a black hat, black horse and black flag. He is the main instigator and the main planner of all the movements that have attacked us."

Chavez says the U.S. is plotting to have him killed, and he says if that happens, oil shipments to the U.S. will stop. It is a strange relationship between business partners. But get used to it. Hugo Chavez remains the most popular politician in Venezuela. And he shows no sign of going away.

He states, "I bet a dollar to Mr. Bush to see who will last longer, him there in the White House or this Venezuelan, Hugo Chavez, here in the Miraflores Palace. Let's see who lasts longer, Mr. Bush."

In his fight with America, Chavez intends to be the last man standing.


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Old 08-23-2005   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masarak
It's funny how some of you call him a nutcase just because he's a televangelist. Hundreds of politcal commentators have discussed the idea of assassinating Chavez and nobody cares. Many Americans seemed to be in favor of the assassination of political leaders such as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Castro, Bin Laden, etc.

Several years down the line, IF Chavez's government becomes a demonstrated threat to American domestic security (aka, terrorists trained and funded by his government detonate a "dirty" nuclear bomb where you live and people you know and love are killed, you will probably be more than a little upset that the CIA didn't assassinate Chavez back when they had the chance to.

Of course, his gov't may never go so far in it's anti-Americanism as this, but it is possible. (IMO) I agree that Robertson could have been more PC with his personal opinions, especially since he knew the "liberal" media would likely make them front page news, but to say that he should not be allowed to express his opinions is going a bit too far. I shudder to image an America where we are not allowed to say what we think.

For those of you who want a more rounded picture of the media circus surrounding Pat's comments, here is an article that is written from a Robertson-esque viewpoint
IMO there is a difference to Chavez's political BS down there and Pat's idiot remarks uphere... As American's (once being the largest most powerful country in the world) we have always been subject to foriegn dictators basting our presidents and what not.. fact is, we probably deserve half to Bs talk that everyone throws our way.. I am not sure where all the trouble with Chavez actually started, but I do think the goverment should have nipped it in the butt to begin with and publicly stated that we had zero intentions of this non-sense and tried to work something out.. But then agian, this is a classic example of some back-woods third world country getting rich off of the American need (NOT GREED) and then turning around and stabbing us in the back.

Back to the point.. (sorry bout that)... regardless of how I feel about Chavez and his BF'ing of Castro, I still don't think people with a strong media/political influence should be allowed to make comments like that for the small minded ones of the world to hear. You guys think it will hurt his ratings and what not... I beg to differ.. it is not the young, strong hearted, educated people that listen to this type of Bs ideology... its the old (older), feeble, weak minded ones you should be afriad of, they are the ones with the money and money is what makes the world go round... This is going to more of an issue in the future than I think people give it credit for... and will only spur igiets like Chavez on..

Do I think we should pop-a-cap in him? shit no! Quit buying oil from his dumb-a** is more like it... maybe an embargo or two... then see what he has to say...
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Old 08-23-2005   #11 (permalink)
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IMHO, Chavez isn't doing anything wrong. He has a right, as the Venezuelan ELECTED President to build up his army, build relationships with whatever country he wants, and do what his people and his constitution allow him to do. He isn't breaking any international laws. He is smart in playing to the poor people as they are the ones who keep you elected (and they are the majority). Nothing wrong with having your government serve the majority of your population.

That article was a good read but I think it's a bit paranoid. So what if he supports the FARC? We supported the Taliban against Russia, remember? So what if he wants to export his ideology to other countries? Aren't we doing the same in the Middle East? So, who is to say we are right and he is wrong? Nobody.

We have no action until there has been a direct attack on us by him. To suggest that he will have terrorist training camps (especially Muslim in a predominantly Catholic country) is ludicrous. So what if he's making alliances with Cuba? That is his prerogative. Every leader of country has a duty to his citizens to make alliances with those countries that will benefit his citizerns the most. If he can do what Fidel did in Cuba (reduce illiteracy rates to less than .25% of the population, create free education for all, provide all the free medical treatments you need, etc) then that will be a plus for his country.

Leave the man to run his country the way his citizens allow him to run it. We don't have to go interfering there just as we didn't have to intefere in the Middle East.
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Old 08-23-2005   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgeer3
Quit buying oil from his dumb-a** is more like it... maybe an embargo or two... then see what he has to say...
I bet lots of people wish that were possible. If we refused to buy oil from Venezuela, gas prices would go up another $1 per gallon at the pumps and the cost of just about everything would skyrocket. People would lose jobs, crime rates would rise, houses and vehicles would be reposessed heft and right, people would get more and more into debt as they charged more and more to their credit cards... but people would still buy gigantic SUVs for no practical reason.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/venez.html
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Old 08-23-2005   #13 (permalink)
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Chavez called the United States the "most savage, cruel and murderous empire that has existed in the history of the world" and the goal is to "save a world threatened by the voracity of U.S. imperialism." Although Chavez and Venezuelans, along with most of South America, have legitimate cases for not liking American gov't docterines, his statements over the years aren't any more tactful that Robertson's recent statements.
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Old 08-23-2005   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masarak
Chavez called the United States the "most savage, cruel and murderous empire that has existed in the history of the world" and the goal is to "save a world threatened by the voracity of U.S. imperialism." Although Chavez and Venezuelans, along with most of South America, have legitimate cases for not liking American gov't docterines, his statements over the years aren't any more tactful that Robertson's recent statements.

The difference here is that, like me, the average American could give two sh*ts about what Chavez has for breakfest. He is down there, we are up here, if he does not like our policies than he should quit doing business with the United States!
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Old 08-23-2005   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by masarak
I bet lots of people wish that were possible. If we refused to buy oil from Venezuela, gas prices would go up another $1 per gallon at the pumps and the cost of just about everything would skyrocket. People would lose jobs, crime rates would rise, houses and vehicles would be reposessed heft and right, people would get more and more into debt as they charged more and more to their credit cards... but people would still buy gigantic SUVs for no practical reason.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/venez.html
Well I fail to see where you get your theory that a raise in Oil prices will increase unemployement and violence.. we have been dealing with an increase in Oil prices for 4 months and have not seen an increase in violence, unemployement or the reposessing of homes and automobiles... If forced to use reserves, the USA could survive for a fair amount of time w/o the help of Venezuela Oil, a hell of alot longer then Chavez or Venezuela could last w/o the almighty American Dollar. We (America) would rely less on foriegn Oil if those damn Hippy Tree Huggers () would let us start drilling for our own Oil agian. We Don't even need to cut Venezuela off completelly, just cut back to the bare minimum from that country, and its leader will change his tone just a bit. He may be even more pissed at us afterwards, but hey, then he would have a legitimate bitch! You see how pissed of Japan was when we cut off their Oil supplies during WWII. You also see where that type of ideology and closed minded thinking got them too. Chavez is better off keeping his thoughts on his own country and not be to concerned with the United States, b/c I doubt we are overly concerned with him and his tiny country.
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