mikey1

if its not burning an excessive amount of oil i would leave the rings alone

JoeKillaMofo

Well, the whole thing didn't go too badly. The problem I am now facing is that the timing is out on the engine, when I took the head to get cleaned and planed I didn't mark anything, and even if I did I would want to verify they didn't turn anything to clean the nooks and crannies. Finding TDC for the pistons is easy, but it doesn't seem quite so easy with the cam itself. Sure I can verify the "UP" on the gear is up and the notches line up to the top of the head, but I am thinking the rotation isn't 1:1 right?

I have done a LOT of googling and can't find anything that tells me, without a doubt, that the cam TDC is in sync with the crank TDC.... Any help on this would be GREAT!

ezone

That's all you need.


Crank-cam relationship is ALWAYS 2:1. Always.

JoeKillaMofo

Seriously? Why are people so concerned about not moving the cam gear when doing the timing belt if all you have to do to get it back into time is put it back in the same position? That seems really odd, I guess I can verify fairly easily, we have a valve pressure tester so if I test the first one and spin the cam 360 degrees it should test good on the first and the second test...

Thank you!

mikey1

if you spin the cam 360 degrees while the crank is at TDC you are likely to hit valves in cylinders 2+3

ezone

1 and 4 will get bent . Pistons 2/3 are down, 1/4 are up

ezone

people are scared because valves get bent when you dont know what you are doing.

You can spin the cam all you want, but only when there are no pistons up. If you cant make that happen, it's gonna hurt.

mikey1

ooppsss.....too early in the morning, not awake yet

JoeKillaMofo

Yeah, the cam would (ideally) start at TDC and the crank would be 90 degrees off so as not to bend valves.

I will be finishing putting everything back together today and testing it out, also I have to upload a bunch of pics to imgur and post the link in case anyone needs some of them for manuals or anything.

xRiCeBoYx

iTrader: (22)

um.. both cam and crank should be at TDC......

Wildcat445

Hey all,

I am thinking of "rescuing" a 2003 Civic EX--the head gasket blew on it. The young lady who owns it is probably going to send this to the junkyard if I don't buy it, so, I can pretty much name my price on the car. We jumped it, and it started up after three months of sitting in the lot. Ran it briefly--it runs really smooth. The CEL is not on.

The process looks straightforward enough, thanks to the lengthy discussion here. A couple of questions, though.

First, do I understand correctly that I do NOT have to remove the camshaft, rocker arms, etc. from the head in order to unbolt it from the block?

Second, part of the air intake is missing out of the car--this is the box that sits over the transmission. Not a big deal to replace, but with the improved view, I noticed the top of the transmission and that side of the engine is covered in old oil. (I did not look underneath.) Could this be oil leakage from the cam plug? We have a 2004 Civic here that made a mess from the cam plug leaking, although not quite that bad. I didn't know if perhaps something else related to the head gasket might be causing leakage, or, if I should look for something else. The valve cover gasket is being replaced regardless.

Third, of course, the radiator was dry. It also had a bit of a white, milky substance around the filler neck. She mentioned the radiator needed replacing--I may just replace it anyway as ~$50 for the Denso is cheap insurance. So aside from replacing that, should I flush out the cooling system? The oil looked clean but I will drain that also to be safe.

Finally, about what would a machine shop charge for cleaning and/or milling the head? Depending on cost, I may just get a rebuilt head instead. It ran smooth and quiet (even quieter than our '04 LX). Just weighing options at the moment.

Thanks!

ezone

Correct.
Could be, and is likely.

Also can leak from the VTEC valve gaskets, one of which is not shown in the parts catalog but I have a verified part number for it if you need it.
That is likely from a severe overheat, coolant was boiled and you see the crystallized antifreeze remains after liquids have been boiled away.......and possibly damaged the nylon (plastic) from steam erosion during the overheat event.
Do it.

You will have the water jacket inside the block opened up when the head is removed so it's piece of cake to look for debris and drain everything but the heater core, also simple to remove the last hose or two to purge through that if you want to.
You should always change oil as part of a head gasket job, coolant will almost always get into the oil pan no matter how careful you think you are.



Cleaning is not necessary if machining is not needed. Wipe gasket surfaces with carb cleaner or rubbing alcohol.

Machining: Have it measured for flatness first by a pro or machinist. If it measures perfectly flat, nothing else is necessary, bolt it back together.
IIRC, .002" is max warpage spec.
Call your machine shops and ask prices.

Wildcat445

Many thanks, @ezone!

The cap was a bit hard to get off of the radiator, so I suspected the plastic had melted a bit from the steam blowoff. She was driving on the freeway when it cut loose. The only thing I don't know is how badly it had overheated--since there is no "idiot light" or audible warning, someone could drive with the temperature gauge near the red without seeing any steam.

Worst case, I can order a rebuilt head. And I believe that's correct--the service limit for warpage is 0.002".

And yes, if you don't mind, perhaps I should grab that part number for the VTEC valve gasket you mention. I figure if everything is apart and I can reach these gaskets more easily, I will do them now.

ezone

The round plug in the end of the cylinder head is only like $10 or so. Honda part#12513-P72-003

The VTEC gasket with screen that is shown in the parts catalog is #15825-P2M-005
The VTEC gasket that can't be found in the catalog is Honda part #36172-P08-015

Thread discussing the gasket: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/36-mechanical-problems-vehicle-issues-fix-forum/361986-leak-vtec-solenoid.html#post4675119

Wildcat445

I'm good on the cam plug--I bought a spare when I bought two others for our other Hondas here, which of course were leaking.

As for the VTEC solenoid gasket, from that other thread:

That is how the transmission looked in this Civic--old oil pretty much all over the front and back. I realize it could be anything, but changing those two gaskets and the cam plug should remove a lot of uncertainty. So, the "unfound" gasket you list is the one between the solenoid and the casting. Good catch.



And the spool valve filter:



The only fasteners that might give me an issue are the exhaust manifold bolts or nuts. They looked pretty much intact in this '03, but there may have been a heat shield in the way. In our '04 Civic LX (non-VTEC), I need to get the manifold off to replace the exhaust manifold gasket and the nuts are about half rusted away. So it makes me wary on what I'll find on the '03.

Should I get new head bolts? Earlier posts seem to say they can be reused.

ezone

Service info does not state to replace head bolts on that engine. I reuse them.

ezone

Clarify, the head gasket is MLS (steel) the only residue will be black paintlike stuff that was on the old gasket and it should pretty much wipe down and be smooth enough to assemble.
Worst case use a single edge razor blade to scrape with.

The surface doesn't need to be spotless, just perfectly flat.... there can still be colors imprinted into the machined surfaces and it still seals up fine.

Wildcat445

I am thinking of getting the Fel-Pro head gasket kit, as it includes all the seals and gaskets I'd need elsewhere on the top of the engine. It saves me ordering in various loose parts and then missing something when I go to reassemble.

Thing is, it comes with valve seals. I would hate to not use them (and yes, I should play it safe and do them), but on the other hand, if there is nothing wrong with the old ones, that's just more tools I need to get ahold of.

I have a valve spring compressor that works on top of the head (not the c-clamp variety, in other words). I know they're not very good, so I may have to upgrade. I would also need seal picks to get all these seals out too, wouldn't I? (We used to sell seal pick kits for industrial oil seals--they were like a thicker, heavier duty version of dental picks). And a seal driver to reinstall them?

mikey1

there have been a lot of bad stories around here regarding the use of fel-pro head gaskets, i would highly recommend OEM, you don't wanna have to redo the entire job for the sake of saving a few dollars

Wildcat445

I've read good and bad about Fel-Pro; the bad scares me. I may end up getting an OEM oil pan gasket while I'm at it.

A head checking and machining seems like it will run $100-$200 if it needs it. Why shouldn't I just spend a little extra and get a rebuilt head? At least everything would be fresh, clean and leak-tested, and I could bolt it on with no worries. Cost isn't too bad since I'd be giving them the old cylinder head as a core.

ezone

A "rebuilt" head has pros and cons. You have no way of knowing how well the work was done.



It may have been done by someone (like in my local halfass machine shop I refuse to use) who couldn't be bothered enough to care to do a decent job, or lacks training and experience and doesn't know good from ugly.

If the original head isn't trashed beyond repair, I'd probably be inclined to have it fixed by a trusted machinist.
I now use a machine shop in the next big town 45 minutes away.





Almost 20 years ago I got a rebuilt head (I think it came from A.C.E.) that was cracked and poured oil out of a lifter gallery (not a Honda)

zhuying311

Hi, do I need to put gasket sealant under/around new gasket? what if they overflow to cylinders and coolant slots in block? Thx

mikey1

NEVER use any kind of sealant on a headgasket,

gasket only.....on a clean dry surface....thats it

zhuying311

so same as water pump right? just couldn't figure out why sealant is included in AF gasket set, seems useless....

mikey1

water pump shouldnt need anything other then the o-ring, if you want you can lubricate the o-ring with a bit of coolant before installation, but thats not 100% nessessary IMO

zhuying311

Thanks Mikey

zhuying311

Hi, may I know the trick to remove the head?
10 head bolts off, 3 intake nuts off, exhaust nuts off, TB off. I hit both long edges of head with mallet but still no luck.

ezone

If you want to get the intake manifold to separate from the cylinder head you will need to remove the rest of the bolts between the two parts AND there are 3 more fasteners holding the manifold to supports, accessed from under the car (these must be disassembled no matter which way you want to take this apart, because the manifold has to be able to move rearward in order to clear the studs in the head).

My personal preference (usually) is to pull only the cylinder head, leaving everything else in the car (see pics below)


10 large bolts anchor the head to the block, then you may need to pry the head upward gently....but make sure everything else has been taken apart so it can move upward before trying to pry.

zhuying311

Thanks ezone. I was trying your way that only pull out head.
Do I have to remove the tiny cylinder at up left corner of engine?

Colin42

The vtec solenoid? should come off with the head