You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to start new topics, reply to conversations, privately message other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join civicforums.com today!
Hey Greg, if you've got sportlines and a front camber kit, I'll bet the front camber bolt has been set to remove the negative camber that comes with lowering and get back to the stock 0 camber setting. If that's the case, that's the exact opposite of what you want. Put a stock bolt back in and you'll probably get -1.5 camber and who knows, maybe a second or more on the course. Check out the alignment info on the dropped civic on the SPC site for some numbers. I'll bet it'll oversteer more too, without doing anything to the rear bar. Free speed.
To remove this ad, register today for free or log in if already registered!
Sponsored Links
To avoid seeing this ad in our forum please register at CivicForums.com
By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.
On second thought, it might understeer more with your springs and a small front bar
More negative camber>more front grip>more weight transfer>more roll>bottom out front and understeer.
Check with Zzyzx on that, I seem to remember him describing this issue. Still bound to be better than 0 camber.
Bored and spending too much time on the web tonight...
On second thought, it might understeer more with your springs and a small front bar
More negative camber>more front grip>more weight transfer>more roll>bottom out front and understeer.
Check with Zzyzx on that, I seem to remember him describing this issue. Still bound to be better than 0 camber.
Bored and spending too much time on the web tonight...
I think you should spend some time reading up on understeer and oversteer and vehicle dynamics. I am not an expert, but I know some of your statements are not correct. I don't want to be mean, just telling you.
For starters having a large front roll bar and stiff front springs will do very little for our car. It has set up to understeer, especially the 01s. It is better to have a large difference between front and rear. Boiler is running i think 350f/500r. It would be even better to have 350f/650r like Progress coils. But that is getting high in the spring rates.
As for a front sway bar, the smaller the more oversteer, albeit increased body roll. Zzyzx is running a 15.6mm front and 25mm rear. If he were to go to a thicker front sway then he would ADD oversteer. You want oversteer in autox or neutral.
Secondly, more negative camber is better. When you take a fast corner, the weight transfers forcing the wheel straight up. If you have more negative camber you have more contact patch (good), whereas if you have 0 camber you are running on the sidewall (bad).
I appreciate your feedback Robbclark, but I have indeed read through a bunch of suspension books, read Kojima, modeled up the civic front suspension on CAD, etc. I'm an engineer, this is what I do, but I'm still learning and by no means an expert nor am I a good driver.
I think you're misinterpreting my front stiff comment tho. The old civics gain camber when they roll, ours lose it. Take the front bar off an old civic and it'll roll more but not lose camber. Take the front bar off ours and it'll roll more, lose camber, hit bumpstops and understeer (been there done that) So stiff front via bars/springs whatever to minimize roll/camber loss, but then even stiffer rear to get rear weight bias, oversteer, tire lift etc. Boiler's 375 front spring is dang stiff for a strut, but the motion ratio in the rear reduces the 500 rate to maybe 200-250 wheel rate. He's got negative camber and lots of rear bar, looks darn fun to me!
But I also suspect that driver preference makes a difference on all this also.
Hey Robbclark - your setup is exactly what I'm talking about! Looks good to me. Stiff front springs, 25 front bar, stiffer rear, seems like it probably oversteers nicely and works really good? And I bet there's no way it'll bottom out in a corner.
I shut up and go away now, not trying to offend anybody.
You guys are forgeting a couple of things. of at least both of you have valid points, but dissagree on which is more important.
but any way, heres my take on the Front anti-roll bar question...
THe problem we are dealing with here is the lack of camber gain caused by our strut suspension, and there are a couple of ways of dealing with it . One, P40vic's Idea, would be to add a larger front anti-roll bar to reduce body roll to an acceptible level, and then adjust the handling balance back to "oversteer prone" with stiffer rear springs or larger rear anti-roll bars. The problem with a large front anti-rollbar setup is that you end up loosing alot of corner exit acceleration grip (Thanks to how anti-rollbars work and our lack of an LSD). Personally I feel that it would be better to run stiffer springs on the nose to control body roll, and have a Small if any front anti-roll bar to maximize corner exit grip. Then compensate for the added understeer with rear end adjsutments. Simmilar to my friends CSP preped CRX (Long since sold, but he won seveal national tours with it). He was running 1000 LB/in springs on the front, 900LB/in on the rear, a larger rear adjustible anti-roll bar on the back and an CRX HF front anti-roll bar (about 10mm). Not that you'd want to run such stiff springs on a car with street tires. But the concept should remain the same for us. Not to mention it would not make for the most comfortable ride on the street... Seems to be that Larger anti-roll bars + soft springs is more for a comprimise to retain some resemblance of a nice ride on the street... but when it comes to getting 10/10ths out of the car, ride quallity doesnt mean much.
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
And thanks for accepting my opinions, it's interesting to have some dialog on this stuff!
Zzyzx - I agree with you that big front spring rate & small/no front bar would be optimum for roll control as well as corner exit grip, and especially good as far as front grip loss when you hit a bump mid corner. You're right that my big bar/soft spring is a compromise. I'm also wondering if it is going to be seriously upset by a mid-corner bump due to the loss of right/left independence and "rocking" the bar gives. We'll see.
Haha, wow, i went to micky D's to get some grub, as im coming back the back way with deserted roads, im coming to a curve, i told myself, lets just brake with the left foot, so im about to start breaking, and i tell myself "just ease on it, see how it feels" then BAM, i slam the break and the car shoots forwards and u hear the gear starting to stall, lol. Amazing, even after i told my foot to ease on it, the muscle memory thought it was shift time i guess, and slammed on it. Good times
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
Ya, the first couple of times you try left foot braking are real Ass puckering experiances...
Wait until the first time you do it in a drive by wire car and the throttle shuts down on you. You got your foot firmly planted in the gas and the car says no... talk about a reversal of acceleration.
Depends... when I'm coming in to a turn where I don't need to down shift for I ushually left foot brake. That way my transition between full acceleration and full braking is that much smoother, because I start to apply the brakes before i actually come off the gas. (you come off the gas as you apply the brakes) once I'm in the turn then I can play the brakes off the gas or vice versa to make the car turn the way I want it to. add a little brake to get the car to oversteer, add throttle to settle it down... ect ect ect.. with a little pratice you can do all sorts of things with the car mid turn.
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
Have those pads warped your rotors yet?? I just put mine on about two weeks ago and those things get damn hot!!! So hot infact that you can't touch the rim, but my god do they make a big difference.
BTW: did you follow the break-in directions provided or do it the way that you would normally do new pads?
