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So, taking out the anti sway bar increases roll for better cornering? What is the down side? Would a thinner or thinker bar be better of everyday street use?
Originally posted by Green Civic So, taking out the anti sway bar increases roll for better cornering? What is the down side? Would a thinner or thinker bar be better of everyday street use?
not quite, see body roll isnt the issue (dont confuse body roll or the lack there of as a sign of a well/poorly handling car). whats really the issue is something called Roll couple Distribution, wich is the ratio of roll resistance on the front of the car Vs the rear. Production cars are heavily biased towards the front, making the car want to understeer in all but the fastes corners (a cars tendency to oversteer increases with speed). By removing the front antiroll bar, I removed some of that front roll resistance, changing the bias twards the back (making the car a little ass happy).
Downsides...... well the car will understter much less(not really a bad thing) but it will also want to oversteer much sooner then what you are use to. and if you arnt ready for it or konw how to deal with oversteer, it can get you in to a lot of trouble..... (with an understeering car, when you make a mistake and the car understeers you go in a straight line, with an oversteering car, when you make a mistake you spin like a top.....)
would a thinner or thicker bar be better fro every day use??? well it all deals with how you want the car to handle. See, contrary to popular belief there is no perfect suspension set up for all situations. so you have to tune the suspension to oversteer/understeer/nutural steer when you want it to. I autocross so my handling set up will be vastly different vs some one who does track days (an autocross set up may be too ass happy for track use) in fact when I do finally get around to running a PDS or track day I will probably re connect the front bar.
SO, just like the engine.... you need to test and tune your suspension to suit your needs.
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
So it matters if you like the suspension hard as a rock or soft as a feather. I wont be autox with this car until I get a new car, a long ways down the road. So if I wanted responsive cornering, like s-turns or cones, would up grading suspension, bars and anti-roll bars help? I guess I want to stabilize the car when straight or quick corners.
btw, I as getting a Eibach prokit for christmas which is the start to the suspension tune.
Originally posted by Green Civic So it matters if you like the suspension hard as a rock or soft as a feather. I wont be autox with this car until I get a new car, a long ways down the road. So if I wanted responsive cornering, like s-turns or cones, would up grading suspension, bars and anti-roll bars help? I guess I want to stabilize the car when straight or quick corners.
btw, I as getting a Eibach prokit for christmas which is the start to the suspension tune.
kind of, I've found that what alot of people think they like, can actually be very bad for handling. Like how hard/soft they like their spings. for handling pourposes the stiffness of the springs is a trade off between how much body roll they reduce, how they adjust the roll couple, how well they keep the tires on the ground (a tire in the air can make no traction) and how well they keep the body from bottoming out. so, and this is in no particular order, you want a spring hard enough or has enough travel to keep you from bottoming out, soft enough to keep the tires on the ground while going over bumps, hard enough to reduce some body roll, and Different enough (front to rear) to adjust the roll couple.
now with other parts (such as anti-roll bars and adjusting the ride height) we can reduce that to soft enough to keep the tires on the ground over bumps, different enough to adjust the roll couple( this becomes secondary with anti-rollbars)...... so in racing the only really important job springs do is keep the tires on the ground, because roll couple can be adjusted with anti-rollbars and as long as the sping has enough travel it wont bottom out.......
I could go on and on, but i really dont feel like writing a book....
so heres a quick tip. after you get your spings, get some konis. after that you can start messing with the roll couple with anti-roll bars and such.
but remember, the adjustment on the konis isnt just so you can make the ride"hard" or "soft" its so you can adjust the corner entry and exit chariteristics of the car! meaning setting both front and rear shocks to the same setting doesnt effect handling it just makes the ride hard or soft. but if you change the front or back (makin one stiffer then the other) then you affect handling.
oh ya, before I forget.... Robclark, tune what you have. you'd be supprised what a little tweaking can do.
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
from what i know about setting up a ff car... you want relatively soft spring rates, and stiff roll rates. you want to make it so that the inside rear never lifts or never comes off the ground completely. what do you think Zzyzx?
^^ mostly, On a FF car lifting the inside rear tire is not to uncommon, but its generally said that a well balanced FF car should just bairly lift the inside rear tire when its at the limits of traction.
now, i totally understand where you're coming from with the removed front sway bar. but, in my honest opinion, i'd rather use a front bar, and fine tune my set up. not sure if you're gonna stay with your set up or not.
Originally posted by boostedbar you think honda put that sway bar in there to intentionally increase understeer...afterall, understeer is much safer than over steer...
yep thats also what we were talking about indirectly earlier....with the 88 civic and crx having the passive rear steering it led to people loosing control and what not.....oversteering is good though its fun
yup, most production cars are tuned to understeer..... Not really desierable for racing.
in racing a little over steer isnt a bad thing.
Roy, its true I probably wont be runnin the car like this forever, however its the preferable set up with what I have. when I finally upgrade my rear sway bar I will probably get a front sway bar off of an 03. (so I will have a 15mm bar rather then a 25.4mm) for when I autocross. when I do track days, I'll probably put the 25mm bar back in. Different set ups for different aplications.
